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Defending God’s Right To Keep You IN?

Posted Mar 29 2011 by Jonathan Brink in , with 16 Comments

It seems to me that in a lot of the spin regarding Rob Bell’s book, an interesting thing happened.  Much of the dialogue suddenly turned to people defending people’s choice to exclude themselves from heaven.  Yet the tension Rob is really confronting is God’s need (or our historical orthodox position) that God keeps people out.

What say you?

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About the Author

Jonathan BrinkI am an business development and communications consultant. I am also the senior editor and publisher for Civitas Press. I recently published, Discovering The God Imagination: Reconstructing A Whole, New Christianity. (Civitas, 2011)View all posts by Jonathan Brink →

  • http://charlieschurchofchrist.wordpress.com/ Charlie’s Church of Christ

    it is a nice shift. I like the idea that God isn’t finding all sorts of ways to exclude people – I thought that was what forgiveness is all about.

  • http://paradigmshift-jmac.blogspot.com Jmachuta2

    Here’s the way I see it… anyone who really believed that God was loving and gracious would not want to *not* be with God eternally. People who do not appear to want anything to do with God are not convinced there is a God. No one would want to be eternally excluded. So then, in my view, there is a different dynamic in place and, as every knee will bow and, every tongue will confess that Jesus is Lord… so will all somehow some way be reconciled to God and ultimately redeemed.

  • http://www.thechurchofnopeople.com Matt @ The Church of No People

    I just wrote a blog post along these lines – sort of. Not that God has a right to keep people out of heaven, but that people themselves have a right to keep themselves out of heaven. We all make conscious choices about living more toward heaven or hell every day. Paul says where there is no law, we are judged by the law on our hearts. If God isn’t going to make us love him in this life, I don’t think he’s going to make us love him for eternity.

    • http://paradigmshift-jmac.blogspot.com Jmachuta2

      Hi Matt and Jonathan,nI wonder if we consider the ramifications of choice. Here is the relatively opulent west we have a lot of choices and time to think about them and choose. I chose to move from Michigan to Arizona and then subsequently to California. However, once I lock myself into some choices it is more difficult to change directions. For example; and easy choice to change would be what radio station to listen to and a more difficult choice to make is where to live.nnLet’s look at the reality…. do we choose when and where we are born and, who our parents are? that is another discussion but, there is a big difference between being born in the USA in the 21st century and, say being born in Sudan or Ethiopia. Certainly our circumstances in this life will effect our understanding and relationship with God. nnSo then, what are all the people who do not choose God going to do? Be void of him eternally? Will they be punished eternally? Will they simply be annihilated? Are they merely disposable filler for those of us who are wise enough to choose God?nnPerhaps we should think of eternal things differently than we do . Perhaps we should take into consideration quantum physics and probability/possibility. Perhaps the spiritual world is much more complex than we can contemplate.

      • http://jonathanbrink.com Jonathan Brink

        Joe, I had this exact conversation with a friend just yesterday. I ultimately think free will or choice doesn’t matter in a state of grace. The problem isn’t that it exists, but that we fail to realize it.

  • David

    Hey Jonathan,nnI think the tension is good. However this discussion and conversation about who’s in and who’s out and what hell is or isn’t is really off track a bit isn’t it ? Are we not as Christ followers to be much more concered with how to Love God and others as Jesus talked about ?……. If you haven’t read the review of Bells book in Christianity Today, they offer what I think is a very fair and well thought out review. nnI think these converstaions although good to discuss, offer little in the way of really providing practical ways of living the radical life that Jesus calls us to. In fact I think they really distrac from the real life and living issue on the everyday level. nnGood to discuss and ask questions but when it comes down to all the hype waht in the end is really accomplished for the Kingdom ? n

    • http://jonathanbrink.com Jonathan Brink

      David, as you would probably imagine, I’m completely with you. Unfortunately the larger conversation is not how to love, but who is in and who is out. That’s sad to me. So in bringing it up, I’m attempting to draw my readers to that issue.nnWhat was interesting to me is that the spin didn’t address Rob’s original question, which was, “Are there billions and billions of people being tortured by God in hell?” A large percentage of the responses didn’t even address that question because doing so meant acknowledging a strange tension with our historical understanding of the Gospel. So instead people jumped on people’s right to deny God. nnI just thought it was interesting…and telling.

      • David

        I agree with you there. Your take on the orginal questions and the response is interesting. Thanks Jonathan, as always you seem to have another perspective or layer that seems to shine a little brighter most times. Appreciate it.

      • David

        I agree with you there. Your take on the orginal questions and the response is interesting. Thanks Jonathan, as always you seem to have another perspective or layer that seems to shine a little brighter most times. Appreciate it.

    • http://paradigmshift-jmac.blogspot.com Jmachuta2

      First off, Bell’s book (I am not finished yet) is not about no hell… It questions the orthodox position concerning hell and eternal punishment. This is not a peripheral topic at all; especially to those who are non-believers, atheist and agnostic. The question is simple… Does one believe that God will eternally punish in a lake of fire all those who have not accepted Jesus as personal savior? Or, does one believe that God will eternally punish in the lake of fire, where worm does not die, all those who have not been baptized and partaken in the Eucharist? nnWhat is your belief David? Will the large majority of humans ever born be relegated to eternal damnation? Is that a loving God. To answer is scary but, the question is straight forward. Most of the unbelieving world will never accept the idea that *God is love* as long as they think he will punish most in an eternal hell.nnLet’s face it… most modern pastors avoid the question as much as possible.

      • http://jonathanbrink.com Jonathan Brink

        This was the reason for my post Joe. Those who are in conflict with the book are not defending God’s right to judge, thus relegating people to hell, but are defending human freedom. It was just interesting to me.

      • David

        Joe, thats a good question which the Bible has much to say about. Here’s my take on it. I know God is Love and loved us so much that he even demonistrated that on the Cross. I think God is also a judge and demands justice. So we have a Loving Father who is also a demanding Judge. I believe the Bible supports the idea of eternal life. Some will experience that life with our Father God. Some will experience that life in a place called Hell eternally seperated from God to live out their self centered lives. nnI believe that death and the grave will be distroyed in the lake of fire one day. I don’t know enough Geeek or Hebrew to know if that means hell will be distroyed in the lake of fire or not. But having said that, there are enough other verses that support and eternal hell. nnHere’s what I hope to be true. That many will join God and few will be in hell. nnKey issue here is not who is in and who is out. But do we live our lives as true Jesus Followers. This issue really belongs in the court of God and not up to us to determine who’s in and how many. nnI recall a scary sermon when I was a little boy. The Preacher talked about a narrow road that lead to life and a wide road that lead to death. nnI hope most chose the narrow way….

        • http://paradigmshift-jmac.blogspot.com Jmachuta2

          But.., what if the bible *does not* really teach about an eternal hell? My point is that the bible *does not really* support an eternal hell. We assume since we use the word hell that the four words, SHEOL, HADES, GEHENNA, and TARTAROUS which are translated hell are all speaking of the same place. They are not. Sheol and hades is the grave. The hell that Jesus referred to in Mark 9:44-48 is gehenna and, in the historical and literal context he was speaking of a garbage dump that was burning perpetually and, it was a metaphor for the judgment of the Jews in 70AD and *not* eternal punishment. The phrase *where worm does not die* is a Midrash reference to Isaiah 66 which links it to the destruction of the temple and not the end of the space time universe..

          • David

            Hey Joe, The issue really is; I just plain disagree. I think it’s plain that the Bible teaches us people will last forever. nnDon’t desire to get into a pulling contest about this verse or that verse or the very Words of Jesus here as that will not accomplish alot for you or I.nnThe fact that people will last forever either with God or seperated from him in my view is clear. How all that is one day sorted out really is God’s stuff, not yours or mine or what we think or believe. nnStill think the overriding issue is how we live out our lives now, and how we from day to day really follow Jesus. nnStill hope there’s more with God than without Him, but I’m afraid not….

          • http://paradigmshift-jmac.blogspot.com Jmachuta2

            Hi David,nI understand your position but, I wonder why people will not look again and see if they have in fact interpreted the scripture wrong? That is what Jonathan’s book is about. Your answer sounds to me like you are unwilling to explore other possibilities as your mind is made up. You hope most are in but you doubt it… what’s that?nnI am saddened that you have been convinced that Jesus words about the narrow way was about eternal destination. Even NT Wright questions that. His book the Challenge of Jesus shows that most of Jesus sayings were about how Israel was trying to get the kingdom by force. nnThe bottom line as I see it is that the church though out its history has found that it is easy to control people by scaring them with hell-fire. That is truly sad in my view. Is it possible that most will not be in? Of course… if that’s the case I do not want to be in either.

          • David

            Joe, I agree with you in part. My mind is opened and I have read Jonathan’s book a couple of times. I just happen to believe people will last forever. I think the Scriputuer is clear on that. Those who live out the self-centered life apart from God and those who Live with God.nnPeople make up thier minds which they desire. But don’t you see the bigger picture? About us living for God and others now ? nn

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