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Straigth From The Horses Mouth

Posted Feb 21 2011 by Jonathan Brink in , with 21 Comments

Been an interesting week and I appreciate all the dialogue you readers have provided.  Jeremy Bouma, has a couple of interesting posts lately exploring why he’s frustrated with the emerging church.  And in this post he said in response to Rob Bell’s theological framework.

“While it is true that humans cannot earn their salvation, it is not true that humans “have always had” it. Universal Salvation is not a condition into which humans are born. Universal Sin is the condition into which humans are born.”

What do you think?  Agree or disagree and why?

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About the Author

Jonathan BrinkI am an business development and communications consultant. I am also the senior editor and publisher for Civitas Press. I recently published, Discovering The God Imagination: Reconstructing A Whole, New Christianity. (Civitas, 2011)View all posts by Jonathan Brink →

  • http://theologyjunkie.blogspot.com/ Ryan Cavanaugh

    I absolutely agree. It is what scripture teaches. For example Genesis 8:21, u201cThe LORD smelled the pleasing aroma and said in his heart: u201cNever again will I curse the ground because of humans, even though every inclination of the human heart is evil from childhood. And never again will I destroy all living creatures, as I have done.u201d This verse is interesting as it is a repeat of what we find in Genesis 6, so the depravity of the human heart cannot be blamed on those only who lived before the flood. nnWe have the huge accusation against all humanity in Romans 3n9What then? Are we Jews any better off? No, not at all. For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin, 10as it is written:n”None is righteous, no, not one; 11no one understands; no one seeks for God.n12All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good,n not even one.”13 “Their throat is an open grave; they use their tongues to deceive.”"The venom of asps is under their lips.”14 “Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness.”15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood; 16in their paths are ruin and misery,n17and the way of peace they have not known.”18 “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”nnAnd also in Romans 1:n28And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done. 29They were filled with all manner of unrighteousness, evil, covetousness, malice. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, maliciousness. They are gossips, 30slanderers, haters of God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, 31foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32Though they know Godu2019s decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them.nnWe have the testimony of Jeremiah in 17:9, u201cThe heart is deceitful above all things,n and desperately sick; who can understand it? Also the testimony of David in Psalm 51:5, u201cBehold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me.u201d This verse does not mean he was born of fornication, that wouldnu2019t be is fault, but the sin in his heart was. nnJesus testimony in Luke 11:13 that, u201cIf you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will the heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!” Jesus declared that we are evil. So who? Was it just them? He was talking to the regular people there, not the Pharisees or any other notable bad guys in scripture. This is a condemnation against the sinful nature of every human heart. Jesus also declared that he came to u201cgive his life as a ransom for many.u201d (Mark 10:45) So the death of Jesus ransomed us from something. From what? Matthew 1:21 tells us why Christ came and that was to u201csave people from their sins.u201d We have Matthew 9:13 that says that Jesus u201cdidnu2019t come to call the righteous, but sinnersu201d so if you claim that Christ has done something for you and came for youu2026you must be a sinner. nnPaul to the Church in Ephesus saying that we are u201cdead in our sins and trespassesu201d in Ephesians 2:1 To the Colossians saying in 1:20-22 u201cand through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross. And you, who once were alienated and hostile in mind, doing evil deeds, he has now reconciled in his body of flesh by his death, in order to present you holy and blameless and above reproach before him,u201d What was Jesus reconciling us to? Was it us to him? Or him to us? The only way to see that is that he said he died to present us holy and blameless and above reproach to God as the verse declares. It doesnu2019t say anything about proving his love to us, or anything of the sort, it says it is to present us holy, meaning that his reconciling removed sin. So there must be sin in those who he reconciled. And as these were regular people, then it is easy to see that all men have sin, some are reconciled by the blood of Christ, and some are not. 1 Timothy 1:15, u201cThe saying is trustworthy and deserving of full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am the foremost.u201d It is true and trustworthy that the reason Christ came was to save sinners. If he came to save them, then what did he come to save them from? There must be something that would happen to those not in Christ. Somehow their sin has a punishment, and that canu2019t just be temporal. nnJames tells us in James 4:8, u201cDraw near to God, and he will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded.u201d Is that not a universal call, if so we are all sinners. We have the testimony of John in 1:9, u201cIf we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.u201d Was that to just those in Ephesus? Only those in Ephesus are sinners? No of course not! It means that all of us have sinned, and if we deny it, then we are liars. And finally, (but of course not exhaustively as I could go for dozens more) the testimony of Peter in 1 Peter 2:24 that, u201cHe himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed.u201d Christ died for the sin of those he died for. No other way to see it, and because of the grace he has provided, then we live to him and by the power of the Holy Spirit who dwells in us we put to death the deeds of the flesh and live to the glory of God. nn

  • David

    I agree Jonathan ! I understand Scripture to indicate that this is true. I think Rom 5:8 is a good example. That while we were yet sinners Jesus died for us.nnGod in his Mercy, Grace, and Great Love for us, and His desire for us to be with Him and live life together, demonistrated His Love by comming to us. God has always loved us and it’s His Love that sustains us and gives us life. nnI think your question has to do with what your understanding of atonement is. If you understand it’s implications as key to the Gospel or not.

  • Lynch Gerard

    Romans1:18-32 is a curious read. It seems to suggest a progression to the depravity of humankind, of “God giving them over” to this darkening spiral. The reason appears to be rooted in v19: “…since what may be known about God is plain to them.” From scripture? No. v20 “For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities- his eternal power and divine nature- have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.” What can be known about God is plain in Nature, it can be spiritually discerned. No scripture is needed. Does this argue against “total depravity.” If sin entered the world with Adam, and if there is no small sin, the one sin all sin, what about this apparent progression? nnThe grace is there for all the unregenerate, to see or ignore. The choice seems to be theirs and it seems a universal offering by God to choose. If one sees and chooses God, did this soul earn salvation? Or is it a false promise and we are selected?

    • http://paradigmshift-jmac.blogspot.com Jmachuta2

      Hi Lynch,nI agree with you that Romans 1:18-32 is an interesting read. V22, “claiming to be wise they became fools” has hints of (Gen 3:6). In my view the passage is definitely a synopsis of the downward spiral of humanity. I find it interesting that the levels show that sexual sin, including homosexuality is less depraved than gossip. This would suggest that sin that is motivated by biology and genetics is less serious than sin that is motivated by our ability to use the knowledge of good and evil to judge.nnOne of the reasons that I like Discovering the God Imagination is that Jonathan builds this downward spiral in the interpretation of the story or biblical narrative. I do not see determinism and choice as mutually exclusive. Ultimately God has determined outcomes… I think that his ultimate outcome is redemption and reconcilliation. There is a lot of room for choice and growth in the process for humanity.

  • Aaron Monts

    Why do we continue to believe that salvation is something we possess, or own. We always seem to talk about it in terms of possession. Instead salvation is a journey, a process that includes sanctification and glorification. They cannot be separated.

    • Annie

      I agree with this. It’s a process and not one who undertake under our power but one in which we cooperate with the Holy Spirit toward the healing of our corrupted condition.

  • http://paradigmshift-jmac.blogspot.com Jmachuta2

    There are far too many passages that show the sovereignty of God to discount the fact that if one is born in sin… I personally think we are…. it is by God’s sovereign design. There is an ontological fall and, even if it is merely perception… i.e., we fell because we have not believed God’s original decree (Gen 1:32) God is still in charge… he chose to create the world. That said…. look at this…. Eph 1:3-10 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, (4) even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love (5) he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, (6) to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. (7) In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, (8) which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight (9) making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ (10) as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.nnTo be chosen in him before the foundation of the world means that this passage predates any in the bible including Gen 1:1… John 1:1-3 predates Gen 1:1. The Ephesians passage is the prime passage of the redemptive decrees. God’s purpose in creation was redemption. If all are not saved then, God is arbitrary and capricious by the act of creation and he indeed created souls to damn. One cannot say God is agape and believe that.nnUniversal salvation is a fact or God is not love.

    • David

      Hi Jmachuta,nnIf what you said ” Universal salvation is a fact or God is not Love.” Then why do you think Jesus died ? Why did God need to come to us in Jesus in the first place ? Why not just get on with God’s Kingdom (in heaven) now vice all what the world is going through now ? So how do you know this is a fact in the fist place. By the way, don’t you think Paul was talking to the “Church” or Saits in the Ephesians passage you site ? and not just everyone everywhere ? Then what do you do if you may be mistaken ? Just maybe the issue of who’s in or who’s out regarding salvation is God’s business and not ours. I think Job can give us some insight on the issue….

      • http://jonathanbrink.com Jonathan Brink

        I would answer your first question with, “Because we needed the evidence, not God. We need the sacrifice to prove out the reality of God’s love…which always existed from the beginning of time.”

        • David

          I thought you might come back with that :-) I agree too ! But also that it (the sacrifice ) was more….Not that God needed it. But that he designed it to be such for us.

        • http://theologyjunkie.blogspot.com/ Ryan Cavanaugh

          How does killing the son of God prove that God loves us. Isn’t that a bit like you and I enjoying a cigar (don’t know if you smoke, but I would love to have one with you someday) on the edge of the grand canyon and a man runs by and screams I love you Ryan and John and jumps off the cliff…how does that prove he loves us? Did his death do anything for us? nnWhen Jesus prayed if it is possible let this cup pass from me, was there any other way God can demonstrate he loves us? He could re arrange the stars in all the languages of the world to say This is God and I love you, believe me, I love you. God could have done that. But to forgive our sins, Christ had to die. Christ died to save sinners, to take our sin upon his cross and bear the weight of the law that was due to us. So that god may be just and forgive sin, as the punishment was payed, and demostrate his love and mercy to us who deserve none of that, and forgive us, not by any of our works, but only because of his love and mercy. What is wrong with that story? What greater love could God demostrate than dying for ungrateful, unloving, wicked and godless depraved sinners like you and me, and present us blameless before him in his kingdom and seat us and heirs of Christ. There were a million ways God could demonstrate his love to us, but only one way that he may be just and the justifier of those who have faith. (Rom 3:21-31)

          • http://jonathanbrink.com Jonathan Brink

            Ryan, believe me when I say that I completely understand why you say that. Everything you’ve been taught has been something else, so to see it this way would be a stretch. And as someone who follows John Piper, I would imagine and even expect a pushback. But I make the argument pretty extensively in my book and in many of my posts about why this is true. Much of it has to with the reality that the religious sacrifice is a human construct we created over time to establish the contract of what would appease us.

          • http://theologyjunkie.blogspot.com/ Ryan Cavanaugh

            Would anyone in the wilderness with Moses have understood the fall in the way that you understand it?

          • http://jonathanbrink.com Jonathan Brink

            I can’t say.

          • http://theologyjunkie.blogspot.com/ Ryan Cavanaugh

            If God’s word could not be understood until the invent of understanding of brain chemistry and other such very recent things, would God be cruel for hiding the truth of his word from us for so long?

          • http://jonathanbrink.com Jonathan Brink

            Well I think it is safe to say people have understood God. Why? Because people have loved.

      • http://paradigmshift-jmac.blogspot.com Jmachuta2

        Hi David,nIt is not so much who Paul was addressing as what he wrote…. He wrote that God chose certain people before the foundation of the world; IOW, before he created anything or anyone, he planned redemption through Christ and he created anyway. Paul goes on to state that God did this to the praise of his glorious grace. Our existence without the knowledge of good and evil would make us robots. We would not know love and grace. This is the reason that Jesus had to come and was indeed the lamb slain before the foundation of the world. In order for us to recognize grace and love we had to have the knowledge of good and evil in the midst of mortality. This is the source of greed lust selfishness…. our ability to know good and evil and death. nnWe needed this condition to experience grace and love. That is why Jesus had to come and die on the cross…. as Jonathan says, for us… not for God. Faith in his resurrection gives us the ability to believe that we have a resurrection. It was truly a sacrifice for God. the Son had to be willing to die in total shame, knowing that he was from God with everyone thinking that he was not really from God. There was truly a dark time for believers between the crucifixion and the resurrection.nnFaith in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus enables us to trancend the knowledge of good and evil and death. It is the only thing that will generate real praise for God. A person who lives and never realizes that they are redeemed is a sad thing in and of itself. that is the reason for evangelism in my mind. The God Imagination to steal a phrase, will impact the world in loving ways that will greatly improve the plight of humanity on this plane.

        • David

          I agree with you in some ways….Just think that Jesus died for not only us, but also because of us, by Gods design. What great Love displayed. Is it universal Love that all will experience. No. Thats what is sad. Some will flurish in there selfishness apart from Gods Love to live in that state….

  • David

    Jonathan, we may not agree 100% on all things Spiritual but I can say honestly you’ve helped me so very much in my thinking and striving to understand more. nnI’ve been reading / studing Kellers book “the Reason for God” for the second time. Good book by the way. on page 200 he said something I think is key to the question. On page 200 ” The Cross is not simply a lovely example of sacrifical love. Throwing your life away needlessly is not admirable – it is wrong. Jesus death was only a good example if it was more than an example, if it was something absolutely necessary to rescue us. And it was. Why did Jesus have to die in order to forgive us ? There was a dept to be paid – God himself paid it. There was a penalty to be born – God himself bore it. Forgiveness is always a form of costly suffering.”nnMany times I think we forget this was not only Jesus on the Cross it was God himself ! If Universal Salvation had any truth in it at all there would be no need for the cross. nnI know you probably get a bit board with the discussion and I understand that. But universal Salvation may be a wishfull thought to many who look for a reason to justify their position or perspectives and thinking about a Loving God….I’m not sure and shouldn’t put words in the mouths of others.nnI do Know God loves us beyond what we can know. I do know God has a dream for each of us to live with him….It’s His plan, brought to us in Jesus.

    • http://jonathanbrink.com Jonathan Brink

      David, I’ve heard Keller’s book is really good. Haven’t read it yet.nnYou said a couple of things that I hope you can explain. First, you said, “There was a dept to be paid – God himself paid it. There was a penalty to be born – God himself bore it. Forgiveness is always a form of costly suffering.”nnI don’t disagree with this statement at all. But the question is who is demanding the payment? nnAnd this sentence, “If Universal Salvation had any truth in it at all there would be no need for the cross.”nnAfter I posted this I recognized that I wish Jeremy had used universal “grace”, instead of salvation. Salvation is an awareness of God’s grace, while grace is God’s basic construct and doesn’t requires awareness.

      • David

        Hey Jonathan,nnBeen gone for a couple of days. I think we think we need payment of a sort. But…isn’t God playing a part here ? If that’s a coal on our toung as a type of Christ, but pales in light of Jesus on the cross. nnI think your right about Gods Grace. The statement would have been better had Jeremy use Grace no question..

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