Comments on: Is Denying God Wrestling With God

By: Matt Hicks

Matt Hicks — Wed, 16 Mar 2011 14:01:00 +0000

Forgive me for my late arrival on this discussion but I have literally just found your website here. I really appreciate what you are saying here although I am not aware of what your friend has been posting. I have been contemplating the idea of Israels’ meaning of “wrestling with God”. I think it serves us well on an international level, church level but particularly on an individual level. I agree that it is important to care and to carry on wrestling. We have a fantastic opportunity in this day and age where the Church need not be motivated by political gain or affiliation (although in places it still chooses to be). It is unfortunate that our creeds i.e. The Nicene, Apostles Creeds, Chalcedon etc were formed as much to keep unity within the Roman Empire though the Church as it was to have a God centred discussion on what is really believed. nnWhen I came back to my faith I took the story of each disciples call as my benchmark. Jesus said “Follow Me.” He didn’t give them a theological manifesto that we can see. He didn’t say “you have to believe this or you are not saved” He just said follow and the rest will take care of itself.nI think it was Bonhoeffer who said obedience should come first before belief because belief will follow obedience.nnI therefore have no issue with someone claiming that Jesus is not the son of God so long as they are being honest with themselves and God and are sure that they have come to this conclusion in a God centred way and not with a personal agenda that serves them.

By: What Is A Follower Of Jesus « Jonathan Brink

What Is A Follower Of Jesus « Jonathan Brink — Thu, 16 Sep 2010 06:14:42 +0000

[...] which asks if Christianity is a system of belief or a way of life. And then it extended to this post, which asks if denying God is wrestling with God. And within these conversations seems to be [...]

By: Chad Holtz

Chad Holtz — Fri, 09 Jul 2010 13:24:28 +0000

Jonathan,

In light of today’s most recent blog entry on this friend’s site, do you still think this is a good thing? http://thecondition.net/a-blog-from-the-outposts/

The post ends with this quote: “But I believe I have deconstructed my faith to the point where it’s now unnecessary.”

This is what I and others in emergence see happening more and more. I think it’s worth discussing and something leaders in emergence ought to think critically about.

By: Modern Reject

Modern Reject — Wed, 16 Jun 2010 19:54:00 +0000

I wouldn’t totally disagree with you that denial requires some level of thought. It is not blind, so to speak. People often know why, and can usually articulate why, they are denying something. Denying the existence of God is of course no exception. If anything, those denying God have often spend significant amounts of time developing their mindset.nnWhat I believe must be called into question, however, is at what point does denial become, as you stated “completeness”. I would argue that the complete and final stage of denial is not indifference, as you suggested, but rather animosity and/or antipathy.nnI believe in order to intellectually honest one must acknowledge, that while we cannot measure or know a man’s heart (as God does), there is a point when active denial, when not fully motivated by seeking the Truth, becomes something quite different and harmful.

By: Jonathan Brink

Jonathan Brink — Wed, 16 Jun 2010 18:24:00 +0000

Chad, as I said on Facebook, no one is suggesting taking a way your right to speak up. I’m just suggesting that James is exercising his right to speak up and it doesn’t jive with your understanding of orthodoxy.

By: Modern Reject

Modern Reject — Wed, 16 Jun 2010 17:54:56 +0000

I wouldn't totally disagree with you that denial requires some level of thought. It is not blind, so to speak. People often know why, and can usually articulate why, they are denying something. Denying the existence of God is of course no exception. If anything, those denying God have often spend significant amounts of time developing their mindset.

What I believe must be called into question, however, is at what point does denial become, as you stated "completeness". I would argue that the complete and final stage of denial is not indifference, as you suggested, but rather animosity and/or antipathy.

I believe in order to intellectually honest one must acknowledge, that while we cannot measure or know a man's heart (as God does), there is a point when active denial, when not fully motivated by seeking the Truth, becomes something quite different and harmful.

By: Modern Reject

Modern Reject — Wed, 16 Jun 2010 17:54:56 +0000

By: Anonymous

Anonymous — Wed, 16 Jun 2010 17:38:00 +0000

Jonathan (or anyone else),nnIs there a point for you where you suggest to a fellow brother or sister that they have gone too far? Is there a point where you say, “No, I can’t “amen” that”? At what point for you does “wrestling” become rebellion or just outright apostasy?nnIf I were teaching that Jesus Christ is the Easter Bunny, would you all just think it’s cool or cute that I’m wrestling? nnOk, that may be a bit much. But you see my point?nnHere is my issue: My hunch is that many of you, self included, would take issue and name as “wrong” people who sincerely believe that Jesus was for exclusion. Most emergents I know have no problem is saying Jesus is NOT about condemnation. Yet I find it hard to believe that any of us here would paint Fred Phelps and his “God Hates Fags” crew as simply people who are “wrestling” with their faith. Instead, we proudly take a stand and say “we are not THAT.” Jonathan, you have a great post here about Ken Silva and his tactics. No doubt we all agree that Ken is somewhere in left field, at least as it lines up with our beliefs and who we think Jesus is and about. Yet both Fred Phelps and Ken Silva along with people who think Jesus came to divide, not bring peace, etc., etc., are people who are simply living out their faith based on their beliefs about who Jesus is and what Jesus stands for. nnIn this post you did an edit at the end with a link to Jame’s latest post. Can any of imagine providing a link to Fred Phelps’ latest diatribe with the words: Fred provided a nice follow up post called, “Why I hate fags” that provides better insight into his wrestling? nnI don’t think any of us would. I know I certainly would not.nnSo this is my observation, please correct me where I’m misreading this: So long as people like the people we like they can say whatever they want about Jesus and we will call them “wrestlers” but if they don’t like the people we like than their views of Jesus are heretical and they misinterpret the Gospel.nnnn

By: Lizdyer

Lizdyer — Wed, 16 Jun 2010 17:35:00 +0000

I think you are on to something – I was definitely searching/seeking God – I was meeting with members of the body several times a week, serving almost daily, reading and studying scripture, praying faithfully but I sensed that something was terribly wrong. It felt like I like I needed to go back to the beginning and start over – so I did.

By: Jonathan Brink

Jonathan Brink — Wed, 16 Jun 2010 16:24:05 +0000

Chad, as I said on Facebook, no one is suggesting taking a way your right to speak up. I'm just suggesting that James is exercising his right to speak up and it doesn't jive with your understanding of orthodoxy.