Blog

Go for it, get on a roll about hell, It's a hot topic…. or maybe not.

If our beliefs about hell were clearly taught in scripture, I wouldn't be questioning it either. But I just don't think they are. I made a post that was much to long listing verse after verse that I could find on the topic. http://jonjourney.blogspot.com/2009/10/does-scr…

Here are a few other concerns I have:

* If God chooses to destroy (or allow to perish) those who do not choose to love Him.. is it not just and fair ? The death penalty is pretty severe… why do some think it is not harsh enough? Does God support the use of torture?
* Would God find pleasure in torturing the wicked for eternity? (Does God hate sinners?)
* A loving parent will often use forms of punishment or consequences because they want their children to learn something and make better choices next time. Our choices sometimes bring consequences that last forever. But what would be the benefit to an eternal conscious punishment in hell? There may be a difference between a consequence lasting forever and punishment lasting forever.
* Why the threat? Does God need to threaten us with eternal punishment to win our love and devotion?
* Is Christianity about getting and selling fire insurance?
* Is Jesus going to hell? If the punishment for sin is hell, and Jesus took my place… Or maybe the wages of sin is death… and death means death.

I've wrestled through all of those questions Jon and I just don't think God's justice is as simple as we make it.

“After all, when there’s no Hell (as the logic goes), you don’t really need to believe in Jesus to be saved from it.”

This statement describes an extremely superficial 'faith.' I find it hard to believe that this would be anyone's primary motivation to follow Jesus, but perhaps it is for some.

“I find it hard to believe that this would be anyone's primary motivation to follow Jesus, but perhaps it is for some.”

Have you read Pete Rollins' parable on the subject? It's in 'The Orthodox Heretic'. I honestly wonder if there are a fair number of people who are motivated by this kind of fear. A lot of churches encourage it, as motivation for everything from evangelism to avoiding 'backsliding'.

Other people, who do not believe correctly, as I do, cannot possibly be allowed into heaven ahead of me, because that would really hurt my feelings, and besides be unjust. Therefore, it is convenient that these get their just deserts, because they are, I believe, born sinners who have not accepted salvation. Harsh but true, eternal separation is the final outcome of this wierd project called creation. Praise be to God.

Oh Nic. Quit being so ironic. ;-P

I find the concept of hell to be wholly ridiculous. In a nutshell, the premise is this: In the brief amount of time that you are alive, if you displease God, and you do not repent and seek his forgivness for the displeasure, He won't just wink you out of existence, He won't just exact an equal amount of retribution for your sin, He will cast you into suffering FOR ALL OF ETERNITY.

Do you really think God is that petty, or vengeful? Would you, or even could you, actually LOVE a god like that, or would you just worship out of fear? Wouldn't God know that your worship out of fear rather than love is not worthwhile, and be angered by it, and then cast you into hell anyway?

I'd also like to throw in the millions who'd go to hell by default simply because they didn't have a chance to be told what they had to do to be saved from Hell.

What I am trying to do is give voice to one logic for hell, as I imagine that voice to be. Do you not think its valid?

Is it real in that someone may hold that believe. Absolutely.

I'm trying to get if you are serious here Nic. Help me out.

OK Jonathan – I used irony to imaginatively put myself in a brain using the hell logic you are investigating. Let's leave my bumbling attempts at the poetic behind us, shall we?

Karen Armstong puts it far more clearly: “There are some people I suspect who would be outraged if when they finally arrived in heaven, they found everyone else there as well. Heaven would not be heaven unless you could peer over the celestial parapets and watch the unfortunates roasting below.” [The Spiral Staircase p 332]

I knew you were joking. We've had too many conversations for me to imagine you think like that. But it is an interesting exercise.

Your comment made me think that some will be horrified by heaven, if they find the people they imagine shouldn't be there. What would people think of God should the enemy be let in? Oh my….

Ray, I actually think hell is real but it better expressed as a present infinite reality based upon a false construct (a lie). When we live in a false reality, it becomes true for us, and thus is true for all time, or infinite. That reality is then expressed in daily life and sucks the life out of everything. It becomes a waking death.

OK Jonathan – I used irony to imaginatively put myself in a brain using the hell logic you are investigating. Let’s leave my bumbling attempts at the poetic behind us, shall we?nnKaren Armstong puts it far more clearly: “There are some people I suspect who would be outraged if when they finally arrived in heaven, they found everyone else there as well. Heaven would not be heaven unless you could peer over the celestial parapets and watch the unfortunates roasting below.” [The Spiral Staircase p 332]

Ray, I actually think hell is real but it better expressed as a present infinite reality based upon a false construct (a lie). When we live in a false reality, it becomes true for us, and thus is true for all time, or infinite. That reality is then expressed in daily life and sucks the life out of everything. It becomes a waking death.