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i don't like when we get into this realm of trying to figure out whether God has to do this or that in order to be good. the truth is that what little we understand about “good” is only because God has revealed it to us. i think it's much more intelligent (and safer) to accept what scripture plainly explains to us as being true — rather than to try and use some fallen intellect do determine what we think would make God the right kind of God. always, my knowledge should be subject to God, and not God subject to my knowledge.

so as far as judgment goes, God has said clearly that in the end, there will be a judgment, and some will live forever in his kingdom while others will go to hell. so i believe it. even though i may not be able to fully reconcile love and justice in my own inferior mind.

i like, though, your distinction between punishment and consequence. we're told the “wages” of sin is death. that makes it sound to me like a consequence rather than a punishment. i have no problem seeing hell as consequence, rather than punishment. rather, i like it and appreciate you having brought it up.

i also think we have to differentiate between punishment and discipline. we know God disciplines his children. but discipline always encourages and allows for a change in behavior. to me, that's different from punishment — which is more eye for an eye. i think in order to come into spiritual maturity, we need to be able to distinguish between the two.

James, thanks for dropping in. I agree to a certain extent but I also think we want to make these kind of judgments about God in order to make sense of God. The problem is that when we get it wrong, it has consequences. That's why Jesus was so important.

I don't know why this has to be such a contentious issue. Scripture consistently reveals and affirms the love, goodness and mercy of God. It also sees absolutely no contradiction in His acts of punishment, judment and condemnation to His character and nature.

Regarding your first question, I think Tom Wright is correct in saying:

“The biblical doctrine of God's wrath is rooted in the doctrine of God as the good, wise and loving creator, who hates – yes, hates, and hates implacably – anything that spoils, defaces, distorts or damages his beautiful creation, and in particular anything that does that to his image-bearing creatures. If God does not hate racial prejudice, he is neither good nor loving. If God is not wrathful at child abuse, he is neither good nor loving. If God is not utterly determined to root out from his creation, in an act of proper wrath and judgment, the arrogance that allows people to exploit, bomb, bully and enslave one another, he is neither loving, nor good, nor wise.”

God says in His Word that His thoughts are not our thoughts and His ways not our ways. He demonstrates His mercy triumphing over His judgment. In Romans it says *while we were yet sinners Christ died for us* Sin is defined as *missing the mark*, which means Gods absolute perfection. Hmmm, according to that measuring stick then God should hate us all always because none of us, aside from Jesus, have met His criterion. Sin is more than morally bad behavior, it is an allpervasive condition we are in as fallen humans, and only Jesus can set us free. James, I think you might like to consider another view of hell as opposed to eternal torment. Gehenna is the word translated hell, might have a different meaning than what we traditionally think. Good stuff as always Jonathan.

robert, who said anything about hell as eternal torment? i only said that there will be a judgment and some will be saved and others will go to hell. i never defined hell. i only answered the question that, yes, i believe there will be a judgment — regardless of whether God is good or not, and regardless of whether i believe that for God to judge is good or not.

i prefer to accept that what we're taught in scripture is true — God will judge through Jesus Christ. and then to assume that because God is good, this action must be also.

JamesBrett- sorry for assuming your meaning there. So what definition do you give to the hell you see God sending people to in Scripture?? Do you see a possibility that the judgment Jesus spoke of was meant for Israel and the entire Old Covenant system which was replaced by the New Covenant?? I agree with you that it is good to accept what is taught in Scripture is true, I think the key question is determining exactly what is taught.

robert, i think i define hell as a place without God. what that means, i'm not sure. i see heaven and hell almost as light and darkness, whereas now we live in a very grey world with lots of shadows, but also some pretty sunny bits.

i've never thought before about the judgment being only for an old covenant system which was replaced. my initial reaction is to reject that idea, because Jesus himself affirms the judgment several times. as does paul, luke, and the writer of hebrews (and i'm guessing others). we're even told Jesus was appointed to be the judge.

so i don't mind at all looking into the idea. it just seems to me we'd be looking into it because we don't like the idea of judgment, rather than because scripture lends itself toward it in any way. i don't mean to be rude with that answer; i guess i just believe that generally a simple reading of the text is the best reading. unless there are obvious problems from within scripture itself?

Hi, I am from Australia.
Please find a completely different perspective on Justice & Rightness via this essay.

http://www.dabase.org/p9rightness.htm

Hi, I am from Australia.nPlease find a completely different perspective on Justice & Rightness via this essay.nnhttp://www.dabase.org/p9rightness.htm