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“If I remember Eden correctly, doesn’t it say something about, “And he will rule over you,” being part of the curse. In other words, “IT’S NOT A GOOD THING.”

Good Point

Yeah … books about being submissive that are written by women are pretty scarce … like hen's teeth. Kinda funny (not haha).

Yeah, I point that out ALL THE TIME. That if we are “redeemed from the curse”, part of that redemption is from male domination.

Yeah, I always thought it odd that part of the curse would be that her desire would be for her husband. LOL It pisses me off when I am frustrated with my husband that I can turn around not long after and find him really attractive in some way.

K try reading this one then:

Hunt, Susan, Peggy Hutcheson. Leadership for Women in the Church.

While I'm sure my position on this topic is a lot closer to yours than to those authors, I have to say I'm a little disappointed in your “critique” of them. Anybody who is at all familiar with their position would know it's silly to suggest that they think “And he will rule over you” is a “GOOD THING.”

The problem with bullshit detectors (I've found) is that they tend to stop us from even taking the time to understand what others are saying.

My initial reaction to the titles: double puke.

Unfortunately, there *are* books by women promoting the 'male headship' weirdness. That's always seemed tragic to me – women encouraging other women into such dysfunction.

We were recently discussing this curse in a class, and the professor (a woman) asked whether we thought the curse was prescriptive (a good thing we shouldn't try to “get out of”) or descriptive (a description of the consequences of the fall, which we ought to reverse/redeem). One student suggested that the curse is prescriptive because women still feel pain in childbirth.

The professor said, “But would you try to soothe that pain, through medicine or otherwise?”

Student: “Well, of course.”

The professor replied, “For the birth of my first child, we were living in a remote village in Alaska. There was only one doctor in the town. I thought I'd do the natural birth thing, no medicine, but 16 hours into labor, I realized that God made people who made medicines for a reason. So I told the doctor, 'Hey, it's been 16 hours and I'm thinking it's time for some painkillers.'

He said, 'Nope. Genesis 3.'

I'll give him this: He was consistent in his views.”

This story made me so angry that I almost punched my desk sitting there in the classroom. Even most “complementarians” agree that medical care for women with difficult childbirth is important – the number of women without medical care who die in childbirth is horrifying. But if the curse-as-prescriptive view is carried out consistently, we get these stories and worse.

We were recently discussing this curse in a class, and the professor (a woman) asked whether we thought the curse was prescriptive (a good thing we shouldn’t try to “get out of”) or descriptive (a description of the consequences of the fall, which we ought to reverse/redeem). One student suggested that the curse is prescriptive because women still feel pain in childbirth. rnrnThe professor said, “But would you try to soothe that pain, through medicine or otherwise?”rnrnStudent: “Well, of course.”rnrnThe professor replied, “For the birth of my first child, we were living in a remote village in Alaska. There was only one doctor in the town. I thought I’d do the natural birth thing, no medicine, but 16 hours into labor, I realized that God made people who made medicines for a reason. So I told the doctor, ‘Hey, it’s been 16 hours and I’m thinking it’s time for some painkillers.’rnrnHe said, ‘Nope. Genesis 3.’rnrnI’ll give him this: He was consistent in his views.” rnrnThis story made me so angry that I almost punched my desk sitting there in the classroom. Even most “complementarians” agree that medical care for women with difficult childbirth is important – the number of women without medical care who die in childbirth is horrifying. But if the curse-as-prescriptive view is carried out consistently, we get these stories and worse.

But Eric, the very nature of the arguments, of which I grew up in and are very familiar is a form of rule.

Julie, while I won't go into it here I think most of the church gets the curses completely wrong. And it is important to note that the pain in childbearing (its not birth) is actually given by God, which means it has a redemptive purpose.

That could be … I don't who you grew up with.

But Piper, for sure, recognizes that “And he will rule over you” is a curse. He says “It is a description of misery, not a model for marriage.”

Julie, while I won’t go into it here I think most of the church gets the curses completely wrong. And it is important to note that the pain in childbearing (its not birth) is actually given by God, which means it has a redemptive purpose.

Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything. rnEphesians 5:22-24rnrnWell I’m going to write one then, because as a woman, I see it as a good thing.rnrnrn

All you have to do to debunk the “man” interpretation of this verse is start reading what absurdity men from a century after Jesus said about women!Guess they missed as Christ loved the church part. These men had issues Jesus never had!!!

I work in a bookstore. Right after Christmas a mother and daughter were in shopping for something the daughter wanted. I overheard the mother telling the daughter, “I’m not going to buy anything. I have all those books on submission that your father bought me for Christmas” n