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	<title>Comments on: The Problem Of Ordination</title>
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		<title>By: alshaw</title>
		<link>http://jonathanbrink.com/2009/07/21/the-problem-of-ordination/#comment-2151</link>
		<dc:creator>alshaw</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 08 Aug 2009 14:55:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jonathanbrink.com/?p=816#comment-2151</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m sorry to say that I think this is a rather confused post as it appears to mix together two seperate issues - 1) the priesthood of all believers and 2) the recognition of a person&#039;s gift and suitability for a leadership role within the church.rnrnWright is correct in saying that Christian leadership is a &quot;grace gift&quot;. Unmerrited, undeserved. So far so good. rnrn&quot;Ordination&quot; is the recognition of that grace gift by those with authority to affirm it. In doing so, they must take into account the effect of grace not only on the person&#039;s abilities but also upon their life, chararacter and doctrine. This is why the apostle Paul urged Timothy to not be &quot;hasty in the laying on hands&quot; when appointing elders in local churches and why he insisted that such elders must be &quot;above reproach&quot;.rnrnAffirming a moral standard for leaders is not in any way to undermine the fact that leadershp is a grace gift. Rather, such a perspective magnifies God&#039;s grace by requiring us to focus on the fullness of its operation. When we see the grace of God enabling a sinner to overcome their sinful past and live a godly life, and when we see that moral character combined with pastoral, teaching or prophetic gifting, then the church can have confidence to affirm that here is a shepherd who has been given to the church by God&#039;s mercy and grace. rnrnOf course, all those who are &quot;in Chrst&quot; are part of the body of Christ and able to minster to God and to one another. But, as James puts it in his characterisically blunt style, &quot;Let not many of you become teachers ... knowing that as such we will incur a stricter judgment.&quot;rn</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m sorry to say that I think this is a rather confused post as it appears to mix together two seperate issues &#8211; 1) the priesthood of all believers and 2) the recognition of a person&#8217;s gift and suitability for a leadership role within the church.rnrnWright is correct in saying that Christian leadership is a &#8220;grace gift&#8221;. Unmerrited, undeserved. So far so good. rnrn&#8221;Ordination&#8221; is the recognition of that grace gift by those with authority to affirm it. In doing so, they must take into account the effect of grace not only on the person&#8217;s abilities but also upon their life, chararacter and doctrine. This is why the apostle Paul urged Timothy to not be &#8220;hasty in the laying on hands&#8221; when appointing elders in local churches and why he insisted that such elders must be &#8220;above reproach&#8221;.rnrnAffirming a moral standard for leaders is not in any way to undermine the fact that leadershp is a grace gift. Rather, such a perspective magnifies God&#8217;s grace by requiring us to focus on the fullness of its operation. When we see the grace of God enabling a sinner to overcome their sinful past and live a godly life, and when we see that moral character combined with pastoral, teaching or prophetic gifting, then the church can have confidence to affirm that here is a shepherd who has been given to the church by God&#8217;s mercy and grace. rnrnOf course, all those who are &#8220;in Chrst&#8221; are part of the body of Christ and able to minster to God and to one another. But, as James puts it in his characterisically blunt style, &#8220;Let not many of you become teachers &#8230; knowing that as such we will incur a stricter judgment.&#8221;rn</p>
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		<title>By: alshaw</title>
		<link>http://jonathanbrink.com/2009/07/21/the-problem-of-ordination/#comment-123</link>
		<dc:creator>alshaw</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 08 Aug 2009 12:55:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jonathanbrink.com/?p=816#comment-123</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m sorry to say that I think this is a rather confused post as it appears to mix together two seperate issues - 1) the priesthood of all believers and 2) the recognition of a person&#039;s gift and suitability for a leadership role within the church.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Wright is correct in saying that Christian leadership is a &quot;grace gift&quot;. Unmerrited, undeserved. So far so good. &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;&quot;Ordination&quot; is the recognition of that grace gift by those with authority to affirm it. In doing so, they must take into account the effect of grace not only on the person&#039;s abilities but also upon their life, chararacter and doctrine. This is why the apostle Paul urged Timothy to not be &quot;hasty in the laying on hands&quot; when appointing elders in local churches and why he insisted that such elders must be &quot;above reproach&quot;.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Affirming a moral standard for leaders is not in any way to undermine the fact that leadershp is a grace gift. Rather, such a perspective magnifies God&#039;s grace by requiring us to focus on the fullness of its operation. When we see the grace of God enabling a sinner to overcome their sinful past and live a godly life, and when we see that moral character combined with pastoral, teaching or prophetic gifting, then the church can have confidence to affirm that here is a shepherd who has been given to the church by God&#039;s mercy and grace. &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Of course, all those who are &quot;in Chrst&quot; are part of the body of Christ and able to minster to God and to one another. But, as James puts it in his characterisically blunt style, &quot;Let not many of you become teachers ... knowing that as such we will incur a stricter judgment.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#39;m sorry to say that I think this is a rather confused post as it appears to mix together two seperate issues &#8211; 1) the priesthood of all believers and 2) the recognition of a person&#39;s gift and suitability for a leadership role within the church.</p>
<p>Wright is correct in saying that Christian leadership is a &#8220;grace gift&#8221;. Unmerrited, undeserved. So far so good. </p>
<p>&#8220;Ordination&#8221; is the recognition of that grace gift by those with authority to affirm it. In doing so, they must take into account the effect of grace not only on the person&#39;s abilities but also upon their life, chararacter and doctrine. This is why the apostle Paul urged Timothy to not be &#8220;hasty in the laying on hands&#8221; when appointing elders in local churches and why he insisted that such elders must be &#8220;above reproach&#8221;.</p>
<p>Affirming a moral standard for leaders is not in any way to undermine the fact that leadershp is a grace gift. Rather, such a perspective magnifies God&#39;s grace by requiring us to focus on the fullness of its operation. When we see the grace of God enabling a sinner to overcome their sinful past and live a godly life, and when we see that moral character combined with pastoral, teaching or prophetic gifting, then the church can have confidence to affirm that here is a shepherd who has been given to the church by God&#39;s mercy and grace. </p>
<p>Of course, all those who are &#8220;in Chrst&#8221; are part of the body of Christ and able to minster to God and to one another. But, as James puts it in his characterisically blunt style, &#8220;Let not many of you become teachers &#8230; knowing that as such we will incur a stricter judgment.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: alshaw</title>
		<link>http://jonathanbrink.com/2009/07/21/the-problem-of-ordination/#comment-1585</link>
		<dc:creator>alshaw</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 08 Aug 2009 12:55:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jonathanbrink.com/?p=816#comment-1585</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m sorry to say that I think this is a rather confused post as it appears to mix together two seperate issues - 1) the priesthood of all believers and 2) the recognition of a person&#039;s gift and suitability for a leadership role within the church.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Wright is correct in saying that Christian leadership is a &quot;grace gift&quot;. Unmerrited, undeserved. So far so good. &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;&quot;Ordination&quot; is the recognition of that grace gift by those with authority to affirm it. In doing so, they must take into account the effect of grace not only on the person&#039;s abilities but also upon their life, chararacter and doctrine. This is why the apostle Paul urged Timothy to not be &quot;hasty in the laying on hands&quot; when appointing elders in local churches and why he insisted that such elders must be &quot;above reproach&quot;.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Affirming a moral standard for leaders is not in any way to undermine the fact that leadershp is a grace gift. Rather, such a perspective magnifies God&#039;s grace by requiring us to focus on the fullness of its operation. When we see the grace of God enabling a sinner to overcome their sinful past and live a godly life, and when we see that moral character combined with pastoral, teaching or prophetic gifting, then the church can have confidence to affirm that here is a shepherd who has been given to the church by God&#039;s mercy and grace. &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Of course, all those who are &quot;in Chrst&quot; are part of the body of Christ and able to minster to God and to one another. But, as James puts it in his characterisically blunt style, &quot;Let not many of you become teachers ... knowing that as such we will incur a stricter judgment.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#39;m sorry to say that I think this is a rather confused post as it appears to mix together two seperate issues &#8211; 1) the priesthood of all believers and 2) the recognition of a person&#39;s gift and suitability for a leadership role within the church.</p>
<p>Wright is correct in saying that Christian leadership is a &#8220;grace gift&#8221;. Unmerrited, undeserved. So far so good. </p>
<p>&#8220;Ordination&#8221; is the recognition of that grace gift by those with authority to affirm it. In doing so, they must take into account the effect of grace not only on the person&#39;s abilities but also upon their life, chararacter and doctrine. This is why the apostle Paul urged Timothy to not be &#8220;hasty in the laying on hands&#8221; when appointing elders in local churches and why he insisted that such elders must be &#8220;above reproach&#8221;.</p>
<p>Affirming a moral standard for leaders is not in any way to undermine the fact that leadershp is a grace gift. Rather, such a perspective magnifies God&#39;s grace by requiring us to focus on the fullness of its operation. When we see the grace of God enabling a sinner to overcome their sinful past and live a godly life, and when we see that moral character combined with pastoral, teaching or prophetic gifting, then the church can have confidence to affirm that here is a shepherd who has been given to the church by God&#39;s mercy and grace. </p>
<p>Of course, all those who are &#8220;in Chrst&#8221; are part of the body of Christ and able to minster to God and to one another. But, as James puts it in his characterisically blunt style, &#8220;Let not many of you become teachers &#8230; knowing that as such we will incur a stricter judgment.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Jonathan Brink</title>
		<link>http://jonathanbrink.com/2009/07/21/the-problem-of-ordination/#comment-125</link>
		<dc:creator>Jonathan Brink</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Jul 2009 20:40:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jonathanbrink.com/?p=816#comment-125</guid>
		<description>Raffi, that&#039;s exactly my point.  I know I&#039;m skirting and pushing traditional bounds here but are we willing to put that on the line?  Are we willing to go all the way with that and begin with the idea that someone could be a follower of Jesus and a homosexual, and allow the Spirit to do the work of changing what needs to be changed.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;And what if that person has not changed during the process like we want them to, to our specifications.  Are we willing to empower them with the Great Commission and call them to go and do the same for others.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;My point was not to validate someone flaunting a lifestyle but to call out the broken structure of our ordination process and the structure that precedes it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Raffi, that&#39;s exactly my point.  I know I&#39;m skirting and pushing traditional bounds here but are we willing to put that on the line?  Are we willing to go all the way with that and begin with the idea that someone could be a follower of Jesus and a homosexual, and allow the Spirit to do the work of changing what needs to be changed.</p>
<p>And what if that person has not changed during the process like we want them to, to our specifications.  Are we willing to empower them with the Great Commission and call them to go and do the same for others.</p>
<p>My point was not to validate someone flaunting a lifestyle but to call out the broken structure of our ordination process and the structure that precedes it.</p>
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		<title>By: Jonathan Brink</title>
		<link>http://jonathanbrink.com/2009/07/21/the-problem-of-ordination/#comment-1587</link>
		<dc:creator>Jonathan Brink</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Jul 2009 20:40:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jonathanbrink.com/?p=816#comment-1587</guid>
		<description>Raffi, that&#039;s exactly my point.  I know I&#039;m skirting and pushing traditional bounds here but are we willing to put that on the line?  Are we willing to go all the way with that and begin with the idea that someone could be a follower of Jesus and a homosexual, and allow the Spirit to do the work of changing what needs to be changed.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;And what if that person has not changed during the process like we want them to, to our specifications.  Are we willing to empower them with the Great Commission and call them to go and do the same for others.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;My point was not to validate someone flaunting a lifestyle but to call out the broken structure of our ordination process and the structure that precedes it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Raffi, that&#39;s exactly my point.  I know I&#39;m skirting and pushing traditional bounds here but are we willing to put that on the line?  Are we willing to go all the way with that and begin with the idea that someone could be a follower of Jesus and a homosexual, and allow the Spirit to do the work of changing what needs to be changed.</p>
<p>And what if that person has not changed during the process like we want them to, to our specifications.  Are we willing to empower them with the Great Commission and call them to go and do the same for others.</p>
<p>My point was not to validate someone flaunting a lifestyle but to call out the broken structure of our ordination process and the structure that precedes it.</p>
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		<title>By: Raffi Shahinian</title>
		<link>http://jonathanbrink.com/2009/07/21/the-problem-of-ordination/#comment-124</link>
		<dc:creator>Raffi Shahinian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Jul 2009 20:27:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jonathanbrink.com/?p=816#comment-124</guid>
		<description>Kinda in line with John&#039;s comment, I gotta cite the good bishop again on this one: &quot;Yes, God&#039;s (and Jesus&#039;) love finds us as we are, but it never leaves us as we are.&quot;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Grace and Peace,&lt;br&gt;Raffi</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Kinda in line with John&#39;s comment, I gotta cite the good bishop again on this one: &#8220;Yes, God&#39;s (and Jesus&#39;) love finds us as we are, but it never leaves us as we are.&#8221;</p>
<p>Grace and Peace,<br />Raffi</p>
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		<title>By: Raffi Shahinian</title>
		<link>http://jonathanbrink.com/2009/07/21/the-problem-of-ordination/#comment-1586</link>
		<dc:creator>Raffi Shahinian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Jul 2009 20:27:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jonathanbrink.com/?p=816#comment-1586</guid>
		<description>Kinda in line with John&#039;s comment, I gotta cite the good bishop again on this one: &quot;Yes, God&#039;s (and Jesus&#039;) love finds us as we are, but it never leaves us as we are.&quot;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Grace and Peace,&lt;br&gt;Raffi</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Kinda in line with John&#39;s comment, I gotta cite the good bishop again on this one: &#8220;Yes, God&#39;s (and Jesus&#39;) love finds us as we are, but it never leaves us as we are.&#8221;</p>
<p>Grace and Peace,<br />Raffi</p>
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		<title>By: Jonathan Brink</title>
		<link>http://jonathanbrink.com/2009/07/21/the-problem-of-ordination/#comment-127</link>
		<dc:creator>Jonathan Brink</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Jul 2009 19:28:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jonathanbrink.com/?p=816#comment-127</guid>
		<description>Wow, it was worse than I thought. ;-P</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wow, it was worse than I thought. ;-P</p>
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		<title>By: Jonathan Brink</title>
		<link>http://jonathanbrink.com/2009/07/21/the-problem-of-ordination/#comment-1589</link>
		<dc:creator>Jonathan Brink</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Jul 2009 19:28:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jonathanbrink.com/?p=816#comment-1589</guid>
		<description>Wow, it was worse than I thought. ;-P</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wow, it was worse than I thought. ;-P</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Jonathan Brink</title>
		<link>http://jonathanbrink.com/2009/07/21/the-problem-of-ordination/#comment-129</link>
		<dc:creator>Jonathan Brink</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Jul 2009 19:16:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jonathanbrink.com/?p=816#comment-129</guid>
		<description>John, I would offer that I haven&#039;t missed that idea.  In fact the problem of ordination reveals that we in general have missed the original idea of following Jesus and what it means.  In creating structures that require little to no cost of following, we have in essence created structured that turns in on itself.  And we get what is stated above.  &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;And I would ask if you are assuming that those who are heterosexual aren&#039;t openly, or even secretively, practicing sin? Homosexuality is testing that threshold of what is acceptable.  That was the point I was making.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>John, I would offer that I haven&#39;t missed that idea.  In fact the problem of ordination reveals that we in general have missed the original idea of following Jesus and what it means.  In creating structures that require little to no cost of following, we have in essence created structured that turns in on itself.  And we get what is stated above.  </p>
<p>And I would ask if you are assuming that those who are heterosexual aren&#39;t openly, or even secretively, practicing sin? Homosexuality is testing that threshold of what is acceptable.  That was the point I was making.</p>
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