You said: “And this is why I come here not to criticize or stir up negativity, but maybe to point out some trees that those of you in the middle of the forest cannot see. As an outsider really, I can see the good in what you are trying to accomplish and I can also see things from a more worldly perspective. Why is it important to see things from a worldly perspective? Because isn’t it the world that we are called to minister to? Christians aren’t called to heal the healthy, but the hurt and the hurting. That’s my world.”

Thank you for your perspective. You’re right. It is a much needed, often neglected, and important perspective. Jesus did not call us to heal and just hang out with the “healthy” (as if any of us are really healthy), but the hurt and hurting. Your world is—and needs to be—our world too. Thank you for sharing your words and heart.

Blessings and love.
Jeromy

Thank you for your kind words. It seems we have a lot in common. I look forward to talking more with you and hopefully getting to know some of you here better. This Emerging Church movement intrigues me. I had never heard of it before this past week and found this blog from a link on a message board.

I never worked in Dallas, sorry. I am from New York and the network I worked for is based in Virginia.

- Kelli

The best analogy is your children. You want to see them grow up. If they are twenty seven and still living at home, it probably is an indicator of an unhealthy dependency. Nobody pays you to be a parent, yet you do it because it’s good. It’s life giving. You would likely be offended if your kids wanted to pay you for that role. An elder’s intent is much the same, to reproduce the maturity of the elder, so you can then do what he/she does.

Research actually shows that humans retain about 10% of what we hear or read. But we retain about 60% of what we teach. Everyone of us is called into his mission. And much of our learning comes in stepping into our maturity and teaching others.

A professional has a vested interest in you needing him. It’s the trap of the current church model and one I think kills pastors, who like David said above, end up doing 399 of the 400 things. Like Monachus they reach a point of highly skilled competency in a limited role. Maturity in the believer actually puts their job at risk.

And the point of this post was to highlight that problem. I’m also working with a group of people to create an alternative model. I’m tired of complaining about it. I want to be part of a solution too.

I personally think the future of ministry will be bi-vocational. But it likely wont’ happen for twenty to fifty years. The two major leaders in the New Testament church were bi-vocational (Jesus and Paul).

I’m not getting you… I do know, though, that having a teacher (preacher) who studies longer, prays more, and is (in general) more spiritually mature than I am is invaluable. If I’m supposed to be learning from someone who is my spiritual equal (or less than that) then, the point of me being the student is defeated.

In an ideal world, everyone would be freed up to follow their calling. We wouldn’t be tied down to having to make money. And yet, here we are. My husband and I chose for him to work and me not to so that I could follow my calling. Essentially he’s funding my missions. Is that ideal?

It’s hard for me to disagree with paying for a GOOD preacher/teacher. I want someone who has more time than I do to focus on the Word and then to teach me in a way that I can understand and therefor grapple with.

In essence, if I followed the argument through, I should go and get a job too. Missionaries should go get jobs. And then with the money that we earn we … don’t tithe it to anyone because they already have money from their jobs.

And monachusbellator, maybe we should think about the pastor we’re paying rather than over-generalizing the whole group of pastors at large. Should we pay lawyers who don’t win cases? Or fast food places that don’t serve food? No. We should pay lawyers that’ll win and eat where the food is served.

It has the potential to create dependency on the system. And when it takes up ALL the budget after paying the building, I ask, what is left for missional activities to restore community.

Is this happening in every church? No. I just think there’s a better way.

“Never in a million years did I imagine I’d be where I am today. My ministry, I have found, is to comfort and give a place to those like me who have been tossed out and left out in the cold by Christianity, and to help bridge the gap between us and the Christian world that uses Scripture to condemn us.”

Wow! I am with you! There is so much confusion when we’re condemned and abandoned by the ones we thought were on our side. That’s when true colors are shown. That’s when love is trampled and snuffed out. It hurts, doesn’t it?

I wasn’t thinking of you as being negative or critical. I love your story. My story is similar. I love that the Father is so madly in love with us that He can use the hurts of our past to draw us into His embrace.

I had a friend years ago who was a ‘christian’ until working in Christian radio. Did you live in the Dallas area in the early ’90’s?

Thank you for sharing your heart.

When life happens, when reality hits, what happens to faith? Jesus said “don’t worry about what tomorrow will bring or what you’ll wear or what you’ll eat…” Yet I typically see Christians consumed with wondering and worrying about these things. I suppose he said it because he knew we’d struggle with it. And I guess that’s my point. I think it’s easy to be a Christian when life is easy. But when the crap hits, when the electricity is about to be cut off, you’re in the welfare line, and your family is eating government surplus, it’s a lot tougher to hang on to the notion that God is there and wants what’s best for us.

I think many times we think we know better than God. Funny, I spent many, many years from the time I was a teenager, convinced that Christian radio was my ministry. For many years, working in secular radio and only occasionally finding contract work or some gratis work in Christian radio, I felt as you do — soul-crushed because I didn’t feel I was doing what God wanted me to do, what he made me for. Then I spent three and a half years working for a Christian radio network. And that is where I was when I left Christianity, or should I say I became honest with myself and God and as a result got booted from the church. I then became very disillusioned.

Never in a million years did I imagine I’d be where I am today. My ministry, I have found, is to comfort and give a place to those like me who have been tossed out and left out in the cold by Christianity, and to help bridge the gap between us and the Christian world that uses Scripture to condemn us.

As I tell you this, I am certain my reasoning for thinking the way I do becomes much more clear. I am not necessarily talking about you here, but allow me a moment to bridge the connection. From my perspective, it is keenly apparent that the very same Christians who use Scripture to vehemently condemn people like me will also completely ignore passages of Scripture like the one I mentioned above. To me that speaks volumes. This is where it also becomes apparent to me that James 2 is very relevant and not necessarily in the way many people think it is.

This is where I feel you all are different. At least I think you are. And this is why I come here not to criticize or stir up negativity, but maybe to point out some trees that those of you in the middle of the forest cannot see. As an outsider really, I can see the good in what you are trying to accomplish and I can also see things from a more worldly perspective. Why is it important to see things from a worldly perspective? Because isn’t it the world that we are called to minister to? Christians aren’t called to heal the healthy, but the hurt and the hurting. That’s my world.

- Kelli

Two things. If paid, the payment should not come with a bunch of strings attached. And two, I like the heart of what Paul said, though I have the right to receive payment from you, I choose not to for the sake of others and the gospel. To me, there are too many other “things” (mostly unspoken) that come with being paid in the traditional means by churches. I have no desire to be under a yoke of man induced slavery (but I am sure that statement stems from some of my own baggage).

I am involved in a new home church. And, being a full time mommy, wife, StampinUp demonstrator, house cleaner, PR for my friend with triplets, while leading a Wednesday Bible study, hosting a Tuesday evening small group as well as an all-day church in my home on Sunday is a little overwhelming at times. I think the main advantage of paying pastors to be pastors is they have the time to focus on being pastors - rather than trying to work 40+ hours a week, and then still leading fellow believers.

“The burden of essentially being all things to all people destroys pastors. The burden was meant to be shared in the community and elders.”
I LOVE what Tozer said on this: “Because you cannot please everybody, I compromise by trying to please nobody. But trying to get the truth out and trust that the Spirit of God will apply it, and that the hugnry sheep will come to the pasture field.”

The apostles in Acts appointed 7 men to be in charge of taking care of the physical needs of those around them, because they could not afford to be distracted from their call to preach. I believe there needs to be a call to the “average” believer to use their gifts, to minister to the body, to meet the needs of those around them. I so wish that, regardless of whether we were paid or not, believers were stepping out and living what you would call a missional life.

I believe that in Acts Paul talked about his fellow workers who were getting paid to serve the Lord, but that he himself to do otherwise… There was no condemnation of them on his part, it was a part of their lives back then, as it is now….

imho, preaching is no more missional than smiling…and sometimes it is anti-missional…case in point:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=SDxcyqeRc-4

I have an award for the design of a piece of broadcast gear under my belt. Yesterday, in two hours I designed and built a solution for our newsroom that included marrying a USB sound card with an old cellphone mixer so they can record and edit field reports with ease and with more rugged equipment. I can walk into a building with a dead 25 kW FM broadcast transmitter that stumped three other college educated engineers for days, point out the problem and have it fixed and back on the air in less than an hour. I have written software that has been on the market and selling for over ten years.

Guess how much college education I have under my belt? You guessed it! None. Zero. Zilch. Nada.

Now, do I think that the only reason I can do these things is because I’m intelligent? Sure, intelligence is a factor. So is the fact that my talent and intelligence is God-given and so, I believe, is much of my intuition when it comes to electronics and RF.

That said, I find it kind of funny that you all are contemplating these changes in your own churches and yet wondering how you’re going to survive! Where is God? If this is something you truly believe is what Jesus taught and what he would want you to do, do you not think he would give you the means to do it?

I think your ideas with the Emerging Church are wonderful and I am not criticizing. I think if churches and believers were to truly make this shift, what credibility it would give to the Christian faith!

The question is, do you have enough faith in the very God you wish to perpetuate by these changes, to actually make them?

IOW, how real is your God, really? The world is watching, waiting and dying to know…

But don’t you think that preaching is missional?

-Raquel

the pastor of a congregation of 400 usually ends up with 399 duties. as someone who is moving into such a role, the re-imagining of pastoral roles is really encouraging.

My concern is the dichotomy that is created by the professional and lay. It creates a barrier that becomes very hard to cross over time and has the potential to allow people to fall into a perpetual state of immaturity and dependence. “I’m paying you to be my spiritual leader and think for me,” kind of thing.

I would also suggest that the hardship created by becoming a professional is crushing in a lot of ways. The burden of essentially being all things to all people destroys pastors. The burden was meant to be shared in the community and elders.

The flip side is, Are people called to full time professional ministry? Maybe. I just think there’s a better way than what we have.

I’m not trying to be difficult here, just wrestling with all of this, ya know??