Thoughts From The Cohort

Thanks for sharing these thoughts, Jonathan. These streams are really connected to thoughts that I am likewise wrestling through.

I absolutely love this one, "We know how to do 500 people really well. But we don’t know how to do 12 people really well. Jesus modeled the latter."

"The two major obstacles to removing people from dependency of the church system (someone called it The Matrix) are the church building and paid professionals."

How do we deal with what now exists? Buildings can be sold, rented or demolished...what about the professionals? We don't make good salesmen, I'll tell ya!

What's the balance between what is and what needs to be? (I probably would have answers to these questions if I showed up last night!!)

What do we do with a person who has a master's level education and years of career experience, all laser focused on 'professional' ministry? Who pays them to live? Can professional ministry still be what is in someone's heart in the stillest hour of their night?

Monachus, this is one of the tensions that is hard for me. I don't like some of those things that I thought. Some of my best friends are pastors. Yet Jesus was bi-vocational. He was a carpenter. This is one of those issues that will take a long time to really work through.

So, can someone's carpenter role be clergy?

I'm not trying to be difficult here, just wrestling with all of this, ya know??

We talked about this a little last night. I think people who lead should get paid. The question becomes how much and at what expense of mission.

My concern is the dichotomy that is created by the professional and lay. It creates a barrier that becomes very hard to cross over time and has the potential to allow people to fall into a perpetual state of immaturity and dependence. "I'm paying you to be my spiritual leader and think for me," kind of thing.

I would also suggest that the hardship created by becoming a professional is crushing in a lot of ways. The burden of essentially being all things to all people destroys pastors. The burden was meant to be shared in the community and elders.

The flip side is, Are people called to full time professional ministry? Maybe. I just think there's a better way than what we have.

i really resonate with this tension.

the pastor of a congregation of 400 usually ends up with 399 duties. as someone who is moving into such a role, the re-imagining of pastoral roles is really encouraging.

Jonathan...hehehe...Al Hirsch and I call it "The Patrix"

Jonathan,

But don't you think that preaching is missional?


-Raquel

monachus: Are you saying that you don't feel pastors and paid layleaders could get jobs outside of a church? I have a hard time with that. I don't wish to see anyone and their family tossed out on the street, but come on! Most people at this level of leadership have quite a few years of formal college education to their credit.

I have an award for the design of a piece of broadcast gear under my belt. Yesterday, in two hours I designed and built a solution for our newsroom that included marrying a USB sound card with an old cellphone mixer so they can record and edit field reports with ease and with more rugged equipment. I can walk into a building with a dead 25 kW FM broadcast transmitter that stumped three other college educated engineers for days, point out the problem and have it fixed and back on the air in less than an hour. I have written software that has been on the market and selling for over ten years.

Guess how much college education I have under my belt? You guessed it! None. Zero. Zilch. Nada.

Now, do I think that the only reason I can do these things is because I'm intelligent? Sure, intelligence is a factor. So is the fact that my talent and intelligence is God-given and so, I believe, is much of my intuition when it comes to electronics and RF.

That said, I find it kind of funny that you all are contemplating these changes in your own churches and yet wondering how you're going to survive! Where is God? If this is something you truly believe is what Jesus taught and what he would want you to do, do you not think he would give you the means to do it?

I think your ideas with the Emerging Church are wonderful and I am not criticizing. I think if churches and believers were to truly make this shift, what credibility it would give to the Christian faith!

The question is, do you have enough faith in the very God you wish to perpetuate by these changes, to actually make them?

IOW, how real is your God, really? The world is watching, waiting and dying to know...

raquel..

imho, preaching is no more missional than smiling...and sometimes it is anti-missional...case in point:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=SDxcyqeRc-4

Raquel, I didn't know that you had to get paid to preach.

both/and?

I am involved in a new home church. And, being a full time mommy, wife, StampinUp demonstrator, house cleaner, PR for my friend with triplets, while leading a Wednesday Bible study, hosting a Tuesday evening small group as well as an all-day church in my home on Sunday is a little overwhelming at times. I think the main advantage of paying pastors to be pastors is they have the time to focus on being pastors - rather than trying to work 40+ hours a week, and then still leading fellow believers.

"The burden of essentially being all things to all people destroys pastors. The burden was meant to be shared in the community and elders."
I LOVE what Tozer said on this: "Because you cannot please everybody, I compromise by trying to please nobody. But trying to get the truth out and trust that the Spirit of God will apply it, and that the hugnry sheep will come to the pasture field."

The apostles in Acts appointed 7 men to be in charge of taking care of the physical needs of those around them, because they could not afford to be distracted from their call to preach. I believe there needs to be a call to the "average" believer to use their gifts, to minister to the body, to meet the needs of those around them. I so wish that, regardless of whether we were paid or not, believers were stepping out and living what you would call a missional life.

I believe that in Acts Paul talked about his fellow workers who were getting paid to serve the Lord, but that he himself to do otherwise... There was no condemnation of them on his part, it was a part of their lives back then, as it is now....

For me, we have to recognize the fact that in most cases, the idea of full-time-paid-professional-ministry-pastoral-staff has created a huge division between clergy and laity, where the former gets to speak (among other things) and the latter sits and listens (or is given less 'spiritual' menial tasks). Having said that, I don't think there is anything inherently wrong with people getting paid for leadership. Has it and can it be abused? Sadly, yes.

Two things. If paid, the payment should not come with a bunch of strings attached. And two, I like the heart of what Paul said, though I have the right to receive payment from you, I choose not to for the sake of others and the gospel. To me, there are too many other "things" (mostly unspoken) that come with being paid in the traditional means by churches. I have no desire to be under a yoke of man induced slavery (but I am sure that statement stems from some of my own baggage).

Kellimac: I'm speaking from my own personal experience. I was in full-time vocational ministry for 14 years. For the last 18 months I have been trying to find employment outside of the church. I've been an electrician's apprentice, a purchasing agent, a commercial loan salesman, a horse protective-boots salesman and am currently working as a salesman with no real future or satisfactory income. The trouble, I think, doesn't lie in the ex-clergy's abilities and capabilities. It is friggin' hard to get an interview for anything other than entry-level positions. (Can I get an "Amen", Jeromy?) Even when I have gotten interviews, the employers have a hard time seeing the validity of 'religious' leadership experience and the tool-box of assets it requires to excel at the mega-church level.
There has been a lot of formation of faith in my journey by the lack of a good job. I have been to some very dark places and have begun to emerge clothed in the type of faith that secure employment could only hinder. Again, I'm speaking and was asking questions from my own experience.
Also, honestly, many pastors would be in for a rude awakening if they were left to find gainful employment outside of the church (another personal opinion).
Humble-pie has been my feast-a-plenty.
I have a master's degree and two b.a.'s. Am I capable to take a non-church job and excel? Yes. Will I be given a chance? I don't know.
Please don't question my faith. Not that it offends me, but it's the type of judgment that our Christian-M.O. has somehow adopted, and it's really counter-productive to Kingdom and Missional living. I'm not wondering if I'm going to survive. My family and I have been cared for by the Father every step of the way. Survival is not about income for me, it's about being who I was created to be. That is my journey. I trust Abba enough to show that to me, I couldn't care less what my income is. For me, it is soul-crushing to live day to day without the satisfaction of my employment being what I was made for or who I am.
Thanks for sharing your experiences.

Monachus: I'm not trying to question your sincerity as a decent human being, nor am I necessarily trying to question your faith, but merely trying to get you and others to think. I also come at this as one who left Christianity for over four years and is just now trying to figure out if there's a place for me within the realm of the church as we know it, or not. I never stopped believing in God, but I do now look at Scripture and how Christians interpret it and use it much more critically.

When life happens, when reality hits, what happens to faith? Jesus said "don't worry about what tomorrow will bring or what you'll wear or what you'll eat..." Yet I typically see Christians consumed with wondering and worrying about these things. I suppose he said it because he knew we'd struggle with it. And I guess that's my point. I think it's easy to be a Christian when life is easy. But when the crap hits, when the electricity is about to be cut off, you're in the welfare line, and your family is eating government surplus, it's a lot tougher to hang on to the notion that God is there and wants what's best for us.

I think many times we think we know better than God. Funny, I spent many, many years from the time I was a teenager, convinced that Christian radio was my ministry. For many years, working in secular radio and only occasionally finding contract work or some gratis work in Christian radio, I felt as you do -- soul-crushed because I didn't feel I was doing what God wanted me to do, what he made me for. Then I spent three and a half years working for a Christian radio network. And that is where I was when I left Christianity, or should I say I became honest with myself and God and as a result got booted from the church. I then became very disillusioned.

Never in a million years did I imagine I'd be where I am today. My ministry, I have found, is to comfort and give a place to those like me who have been tossed out and left out in the cold by Christianity, and to help bridge the gap between us and the Christian world that uses Scripture to condemn us.

As I tell you this, I am certain my reasoning for thinking the way I do becomes much more clear. I am not necessarily talking about you here, but allow me a moment to bridge the connection. From my perspective, it is keenly apparent that the very same Christians who use Scripture to vehemently condemn people like me will also completely ignore passages of Scripture like the one I mentioned above. To me that speaks volumes. This is where it also becomes apparent to me that James 2 is very relevant and not necessarily in the way many people think it is.

This is where I feel you all are different. At least I think you are. And this is why I come here not to criticize or stir up negativity, but maybe to point out some trees that those of you in the middle of the forest cannot see. As an outsider really, I can see the good in what you are trying to accomplish and I can also see things from a more worldly perspective. Why is it important to see things from a worldly perspective? Because isn't it the world that we are called to minister to? Christians aren't called to heal the healthy, but the hurt and the hurting. That's my world.

- Kelli

Kelli,
Nice! I love your thoughts and am inspired by your journey. I totally agree with how we seem to have so much faith when things are all as we think they should be. That's how I was. Now, I've discovered something deeper; something forged in the shadows of despair. Church never gave me that, security never gave me that. The Father gave it to me when I was low enough to simply ask in sincerity.

"Never in a million years did I imagine I’d be where I am today. My ministry, I have found, is to comfort and give a place to those like me who have been tossed out and left out in the cold by Christianity, and to help bridge the gap between us and the Christian world that uses Scripture to condemn us."

Wow! I am with you! There is so much confusion when we're condemned and abandoned by the ones we thought were on our side. That's when true colors are shown. That's when love is trampled and snuffed out. It hurts, doesn't it?

I wasn't thinking of you as being negative or critical. I love your story. My story is similar. I love that the Father is so madly in love with us that He can use the hurts of our past to draw us into His embrace.

I had a friend years ago who was a 'christian' until working in Christian radio. Did you live in the Dallas area in the early '90's?

Thank you for sharing your heart.

One of the things I must make clear is that I'm not against people getting paid. Nor am I against people doing this full time. My concern is as Jeromy pointed out the divide that is created by the distinction of professionals.

It has the potential to create dependency on the system. And when it takes up ALL the budget after paying the building, I ask, what is left for missional activities to restore community.

Is this happening in every church? No. I just think there's a better way.

jonathan,

I'm not getting you... I do know, though, that having a teacher (preacher) who studies longer, prays more, and is (in general) more spiritually mature than I am is invaluable. If I'm supposed to be learning from someone who is my spiritual equal (or less than that) then, the point of me being the student is defeated.

In an ideal world, everyone would be freed up to follow their calling. We wouldn't be tied down to having to make money. And yet, here we are. My husband and I chose for him to work and me not to so that I could follow my calling. Essentially he's funding my missions. Is that ideal?

It's hard for me to disagree with paying for a GOOD preacher/teacher. I want someone who has more time than I do to focus on the Word and then to teach me in a way that I can understand and therefor grapple with.

In essence, if I followed the argument through, I should go and get a job too. Missionaries should go get jobs. And then with the money that we earn we ... don't tithe it to anyone because they already have money from their jobs.

And monachusbellator, maybe we should think about the pastor we're paying rather than over-generalizing the whole group of pastors at large. Should we pay lawyers who don't win cases? Or fast food places that don't serve food? No. We should pay lawyers that'll win and eat where the food is served.

Raquel, if it works for you then great. But there's a difference between a professional and an elder. An elder's future is not tied to you taking his job.

The best analogy is your children. You want to see them grow up. If they are twenty seven and still living at home, it probably is an indicator of an unhealthy dependency. Nobody pays you to be a parent, yet you do it because it's good. It's life giving. You would likely be offended if your kids wanted to pay you for that role. An elder's intent is much the same, to reproduce the maturity of the elder, so you can then do what he/she does.

Research actually shows that humans retain about 10% of what we hear or read. But we retain about 60% of what we teach. Everyone of us is called into his mission. And much of our learning comes in stepping into our maturity and teaching others.

A professional has a vested interest in you needing him. It's the trap of the current church model and one I think kills pastors, who like David said above, end up doing 399 of the 400 things. Like Monachus they reach a point of highly skilled competency in a limited role. Maturity in the believer actually puts their job at risk.

And the point of this post was to highlight that problem. I'm also working with a group of people to create an alternative model. I'm tired of complaining about it. I want to be part of a solution too.

I personally think the future of ministry will be bi-vocational. But it likely wont' happen for twenty to fifty years. The two major leaders in the New Testament church were bi-vocational (Jesus and Paul).

I don't think anyone would say that teachers are not valuable. The question is dealing more with is there a difference ontologically between you and your pastor? Is your pastor called to a higher Christianity? Does something special happen to him/her at ordination? Many of us would say no. And many more would say no, but still hold to a distinction. The distinction needs to be argued against, in my opinion.

Monachus:

Thank you for your kind words. It seems we have a lot in common. I look forward to talking more with you and hopefully getting to know some of you here better. This Emerging Church movement intrigues me. I had never heard of it before this past week and found this blog from a link on a message board.

I never worked in Dallas, sorry. I am from New York and the network I worked for is based in Virginia.

- Kelli

Kelli,

You said: "And this is why I come here not to criticize or stir up negativity, but maybe to point out some trees that those of you in the middle of the forest cannot see. As an outsider really, I can see the good in what you are trying to accomplish and I can also see things from a more worldly perspective. Why is it important to see things from a worldly perspective? Because isn’t it the world that we are called to minister to? Christians aren’t called to heal the healthy, but the hurt and the hurting. That’s my world."

Thank you for your perspective. You're right. It is a much needed, often neglected, and important perspective. Jesus did not call us to heal and just hang out with the "healthy" (as if any of us are really healthy), but the hurt and hurting. Your world is—and needs to be—our world too. Thank you for sharing your words and heart.

Blessings and love.
Jeromy