Did The Podcast Swallow Your Pastor

Posted by Jonathan Brink
January 31, 2008

podcast.jpg

As I read that title it sounds so exploitative but it’s not for cheap thrills and readers. I really mean to go somewhere with this so stick with me.

I’m a huge believe in the value of technology. I bought my first Apple computer for $3,000 buck back in 1983. And since then I’ve seen technology literally change lives. It has so much potential and promise. Technology can be used to do great things in the world, one of which has been the empowerment of the average person with the ability to communicate. Email used to be so cool and now I send or receive on average of 50 electronic letters a day. Youtube disperses anything that is buzzworthy in a moments notice. Facebook is connecting me with people I haven’t seen in 15 years. And the podcast…I’m really beginning to wonder if this little invention won’t be the biggest technological monster of them all.

About two years ago I bought an iPod because I wanted to listen to Rob Bell sermon’s. With iTunes they eventually became instantly delivered to my computer. I didn’t have to go get them. And over time I began to rely on them, even feeling at times that I was more connected to Mars Hill than my own local church.

And then a good friend of mine, Paul Mayers, wrote this,

“I can find podcasts galore to download of top preachers from all over the world.”

And his statement made me really think for a second. Are other people doing the same thing as me? And yes they are. In droves. The Mars Hill podcast is the second most requested podcast in the Christian category. And I’m sure there are others as well. People are beginning outside their local church because of this technology simply because they now can.

But the nature of podcasting has changed the way we interact with our local body. It’s tight, cost-effective to produce, portable, and cheap to distribute. Television or video can’t reach that level of simplicity.

And then I really got chills thinking…in twenty years are there going to be a significant amount of people who derive a large portion of their spiritual dialog and discipleship from podcast? Is the next trend of church hopping to simply move to the podcast?

Paul asks,

“…after all with me and Jesus why do I need church anyway? It’s a much better investment of my time and energy to go and hang out with people i like who don’t go to church and be a missionary in my community.”

And I know it won’t replace the need for community but it will allow people access to quality teachers…that live thousands of miles away. So I’m wondering if when all is said and done this simply little technology will be one of the most significant player sin the reformation of the church?

What do you think?

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Emerging Church, Rob Bell, discipleship, postmodern, technology

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  • Joe
    I might take your tip and download the Mars Hill podcasts. I find it extremely irritating trying to find decent podcasts to listen to. I was specifically trying to find podcasts about the emerging church.

    I quite enjoyed 'There's there Steeple, where are the people?, but some of the others out there are so banal. I've listened to a couple of blokes who talk such utter drivel that I wonder why they bother to podcast it all.

    The quality of some of the recordings is attrocious. I'd like to hear some quality teachers, but where are they?

    Some of the podcasts seem to be by academics and other well read people and loose the ordinary guy in the street.

    I'm gonna try it again, but if any one knows some good podcasts can they list them on here?

    I was thinking of compiling my own list just the other day, so I am glad that you have brought this subject up.
  • Sermon podcasts are the new form of internet sermon transcript download which were the new form of books and tapes which were the new form of radio broadcasts ... and so it will continue with newer forms of technology.

    My gut-feelings are really mixed on the subject. Sure, a lot of what such e-teachers present certainly can be helpful, and their messages could help break down some barriers within the Church ... but are we becoming dependent on information from outside our cultural context, to the detriment of local churches? To me, the stickyest e-issues are still that dependency on "outsourcing" of teaching (1) may help with generic insights, but other aspects fused in from the teacher's context may not apply in our cultural setting and in fact could be counterproductive, and (2) dependency on outside gifted people ultimately quenches the Spirit if we neglect or refuse to develop local disciples who've been given spiritual gifts of teaching.

    A question in return: What percentage of podcast preachers would you say teach in ways that disciple their listeners to be critical thinkers about the Bible, ourselves, and our cultures - versus just give the results of their own thinking? (My thoughts: Those who do the former are helping us become spiritually sustainable communities. Those who do the latter are okay as an occasionally seasoning.)

    I think we have to be judicious in our use of techno-delivered material, and discerning about the limits of its applicability to the local scene. Otherwise, aren't we just doing the modernist thing all over again, even if under the guise of being missional/listening to "missional messages," and assuming that it's all "universals"?
  • Well said, Brad...should have known you'd have something thoughtful to say!

    I was, of course, immediately reminded of "Voices of the Virtual World" and the many challenges presented concerning the strengths as well as the weaknesses of the convergence of technology and the church.

    Jonathan, have you seen/heard of that book? Len Hjalmarson and John LaGrou edited this e-book/paperback of essays from 41 different authors. Very thought provoking....
  • Joe, iTunes has some great Podcasts to choose from. I would try there if you haven't.
  • Brad, I would say that podcasts are the ultimate form of audio presentation. They are transferable over the net, cost pennies to copy and can be listen to in many forms (computer, iPod, tv.)

    To answer your question, I would say it doesn't really matter how many because people will always look and quality will rise to the top and attract.

    I'm not sure I understand your last question.
  • Sorry Peggy, I have not seen that book.
  • I'm just wondering how this fits in with your recent blog about your thoughts on a traditional pastor role? Is just listening to pods kind of whitling things down to just a me/God/pastor sort of thing?

    How do we function as a body, with distinct roles, if we are all at home listening to messages?
  • Hi Jonathan. oh, fiddle-faddle! I think my brain did the random/Jeopardy thing and gave my answer in the form of a question and the question wasn't exactly well formed and the random thing means I wrote something that leaped over about a dozen intermediate thoughts, and so out came: //Otherwise, aren’t we just doing the modernist thing all over again, even if under the guise of being missional/listening to “missional messages,” and assuming that it’s all “universals”?//

    Sorry. Lemme see if I can refigure what I meant to say, and NOT in the form of a question!

    * Modernist thinking focuses on universal principles, or what global we should all hold in common. "Postmodernist" thinking focuses on what local things we have that's different.

    * We can tune in to excellent speakers (via podcast, books, tapes, whatever source) and learn things that are thought to be universal principles, but they can turn out to be from the speaker's own local context instead.

    * So, we absorb what's local to the speaker, thinking that they are actually principles that could apply anywhere. And when we try to apply, it doesn't always work very well.

    * I think I've seen this happen with "organic" and "missional" messages, where it's about a specific model of being church that's being used in one place with great success there, but it doesn't necessarily work that way where I'm at. What we often call "best practices" only means that the stuff really works SOMEWHERE - but I'd suggest that this doesn't guarantee it will work EVERYWHERE.

    * So ... if we listened to podcasts about being more missional, it actually might end up with us becoming less missional if we start using stuff that works elsewhere, thinking it will automatically work here.

    Yikes! Sometimes thinking is sooooo convoluted. But at least we're trying ...

    Thanks for a second chance. Hope this at least makes more clear what was going on in my very crazy mind when out popped that non-understandable question!
  • Joe
    Jonathon. I have already tried itunes. Its rather like seperating the wheat from the chaff. Even Mars Hill throws up several different ones.

    Gotta go,
  • Joe: Personally I've enjoyed the Mars Hill Seattle (Marc Driscoll's church) podcast. I happen to not agree with about half of what he says, but he does force you to think about your faith.

    And the Woodland Hills Community Church (Gregory Boyd's church) is great listening as well. Again, your mileage may vary depending on your theological convictions.

    I would add that podcasts are diminishing the need for a church to have stellar teaching, because, after all, I can just get a 'great' podcast sermon online later. It's an interesting shift and as more churches become multisite I wouldn't be terribly surprised if the sermon was beamed in from somewhere far away and the local pastor's main role became geared towards more counseling. Just a pet theory of mine.
  • Nicole, help me with the post you are referencing.

    I never said it will replace the need for community. And it will likely allow people to become explorers.

    http://jonathanbrink.com/2008/01/26/help-identi...

    And this is a phenomenon that I was just calling it out.
  • Chris, Greg is a phenomenal teacher but he does make you question a LOT.
  • Brad, I wouldn't assume that a speaker two thousand miles away isn't providing local insight. I listen to Rob Bell and he constantly challenges us to think locally and in provocative ways. Helping the poor is very local.
  • Part of my point is that we should not assume that everything someone who is elsewhere says automatically applies where we are, because their principles are universals, or assume that nothing they say applies where we are, because their thoughts are only local.

    I guess the key thing that frustrates me about resources from any source, is that we haven't exactly done well in training our leaders in how to discern what principles are meant to be universal, and what are local. And so, we often confuse a universal WHAT-we-should-do with a local HOW-we-should-do-it. For instance, some read the New Testament in ways that everything that is described is supposedly prescribed - we have to do exactly WHAT it says, in the exact way HOW they did it.

    Maybe all this contextualization stuff is just my own pet peeve ... or ... could it possibly be ... a universal principle that we are meant to make local-culture-sensitive applications?!

    :-)
  • I don't know Brad.
  • Jonathan - I can't find the post I was thinking of....

    I adore listening to Piper sermons. And I have Driscoll on in the background as I type this - I guess my fear is, are we going to listen to podcasts, at the expense of discipleship? If listening to them is a both/and, with meeting with other Christians for mutual edification, then I think it is awesome... Just wondering how you envision podcasts as a part of regular worship/corporate church life (church in the NT sense - the body of Christ)

    To answer your last question in the original post - I think it can ONLY be significant, if people are taking the message, and applying it to their lives. Having access to great speakers is only great if we take the information, and become transformed by it...
  • Nicole, I would say that any form beyond what we're doing is likely to lead to more discipleship than we currently have.

    Again, this is a phenomenon. I don't really know but I think it will likely encourage people who are ready to leave the traditional church and exit.
  • Brad - There should always be room to hear messages from great communicators around the world and allow people to be great discerners of relevence, truth, etc. That is the joy of freedom and responsibility. I don't think it is a negative thing.

    "To answer your question, I would say it doesn’t really matter how many because people will always look and quality will rise to the top and attract."

    You said this above, Jonathon (in #5), and it is not quite correct, if you are saying the successful ones will be the quality ones (hmmm, like the McChristian church thing? lol). The masses will be attracted most often to what tickles their ears or what hits them in the moment (explains why some short-term past-times like drugs, alcohol, etc thrive).

    It sounds to me just like the new tv church. It is more portable, easier to get (not tied to a specific time frame), better all the way around. I soundly agree with you, that the potential for ministry and truth and all the good things about church is phenomenal. But as any tool, it can also be exploited for the proverbial "dark side". We are involved in a spiritual warfare. Kudos to those exploring Christians that are able to use newer technologies for the sake of the Kingdom.
  • Steve, that's not what I'm saying. Quality in a sermon or talk is irrespect of the amount of money put in it. In fact the joke is how poorly Mars Hill's quality is to keep the download time down.

    But I disagree that podcasting simply the new tv. Podcast don't cost much to make. Television was different and seemed to attract a strangely curious group of pastors interested in their own agenda and payout. Podcasts virtually eliminated the cost to entry and there will be a whole lot more people podcasting. But as I said before, the cream (a la Rob Bell as example) will rise to the top and people will eventually find him.

    This lack of barrier to entry will create phenomenally good content because really creative people will do it any regardless of the payout. They will do it because its good to do. They will do it because they want to. They will do it because they are called to. And the cream will rise.
  • I suppose it is like blogging... The best bloggers become most popular. I agree on the access, but I also see where the not-so-discerning can get off track by listening to someone who is a bit whacked out with his/her theology - just like those following some of the tv preachers. There is also a segment that can't and don't blog or podcast for any number of reasons. And it does not reach those without the technology, those who are homeless and/or otherwise finding themselves in great need of more basic issues. It discludes seniors who can't handle the newer technology.

    The comparison with TV is the fact we don't have to go to church to do church - we can stay home when we're sick, tired, or grumpy and still get a sermon. I know several churches who did tv for ministry, rather than the "curious groups of pastors" you mentioned. Any technology is a tool, and invariably has a downside to it - that's the nature of people!

    The fact that there are so many more people talking can also make it harder to find things of quality. It can be somewhat time consuming - a morning goes by pretty quick doing emails and blogs and other techno stuff.
  • Steve Grove said: "The fact that there are so many more people talking can also make it harder to find things of quality."

    I'm with you 100%! In the matter of countless podcasts, it seems like the Apostle Paul already addressed the matter:

    1 Corinthians 4:14-16,19-20 - "I am not writing this to shame you, but to warn you, as my dear children. Even though you have ten thousand guardians in Christ, you do not have many fathers, for in Christ Jesus I became your father through the gospel. Therefore I urge you to imitate me....But I will come to you very soon, if the Lord is willing, and then I will find out not only how these arrogant people are talking, but what power they have. FOR THE KINGDOM OF GOD IS NOT A MATTER OF TALK BUT OF POWER." (NIV, emphasis added).

    I actually host a podcast and a blog, but my purpose has always bee to promote true fellowship and discipleship within the context of God's supernatural power. The result? The growing readership regularly shares testimonies with me about how awesome God is and how their lives are being transformed!

    The Kingdom of God is not a matter of talk, but of power.

    www.SupernaturalTruth.com
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