Help Identifying Categories

FYI,
"tweeners" is a term commonly used to refer to pre-teens (like around 11-12)

I know but I needed a title for those "in-between." Got a different one?

Quick background: New to church, new to Christ, actively seeking His Love.

For me, there is coexistance with the church I attend and the other spiritual activities I do. I'm not convenced that one church can have all the answers and I believe I will seek alternate sources of knowledge and wisdom in order to move closer to God. Maybe that's a newbie view and maybe it will change should I decide to become more active in the church, but for now, I am confident that I'm on the right track. This journey is my journey and it has made all the difference.

I call them disillusioned!

I guess I would say that I am in the "explorers" catagory.
Although I have done a lot of exploring and still have not found anything close to what I would like to find. I have friends in this same place and we have tried all kinds of different ways to meet together. So far to no avail (LOL)
I really believe it should be "organic" for lack of a better word. It should just happen in our everyday lives. We should be aware of those around us and how we can be an expression of God to them without beating them over the head with the gosple. I don't know, it's so strange living in this time of transformation of HIS church. I don't believe we need another reformation as I don't think the church can be reformed I believe it needs a complete transformation!!!!!! I sure hope I live to see some of it!

hey jonathan, i will pass on to a few others and see if they'll pass on their two cents..

i agree with jim on "tweeners" - maybe the word for them is "restless"

i am not sure on percentages but i think exiters are way higher than 5% & explorers are probably a little higher, too. i have a huge percentage of friends who just plain aren't going anymore in different areas of the US and another chunk exploring new options. there are sure a lot of people still just doing the day-in-day-out church thing still, though, too, so maybe 70% is a good number.

the other category that you may want to consider is the "wounded" or "lost" - it probably goes across each category but i think it's a big group of people across christian community they are sitting somewhere living with feelings of being burned by church, pastors who "fell", churches who split, and just totally lost on what to do or where to go.....

i am definitely in the explorer, sometimes it feels like exiting, honestly, because it is so far from where i've been and so "not church" in terms of what so many consider "church" but because we are still "in" i suppose that makes us explorers....

I like restless rather than tweeners, and it fits better with your overall theme of movement for the categories.

I think you need a common definition of the traditional church as a start as well. Do you mean programming (how they "do" church and outreach in a certain way? Are you focusing on the style of their Sunday service, or whether they even have one? Is it about vision, and why they do church in the first place? I am having a hard time with the term because it is used in so many ways by so many people. Traditional for many people is a catholic service, or an Anglican one with its liturgy. For others it is having a Sunday am service.

I find it a bit hard to focus strictly on these attitudes. You almost leave out a whack of seniors who have known nothing else, but may not want change not because they think the church is perfect, but because they have an issue with change itself. Where do they fit in?

There are also restlessers who are trying to be agents of change within the traditional church. There is almost an assumption that if you are part of a traditional church, then that's the box you get stuck in.

Then there's the grumps, the people that no matter what kind or style of church they are in, they are dissatisfied. Unfortunately, I think there are a lot of these people in churches today, and they tend to give churches a bad rap. They church hop, leaving bad taste and burned pastors wherever they go. They tend to be older people.

Your question itself sets up the traditional church as an assumption. When I read church, I assume you are talking about both church as I grew up with as well as more "cutting edge" styles of doing ministry. Instead of saying, "Currently I see four distinct categories about the feelings people have about the the church" you should say something like, "Currently I see four distinct reactions (or responses) to the traditional church of the 20th C."

Some people in churches believe that multi-site churches are becoming the new traditional church, as more and more ministries reflect more "niche" type ministries. There is an edge that is focusing on catering more to individual needs of people as tradition becomes too restrictive.

As well, many leaders within the "traditional" church are also listening to the voices of renewal and moving whole denominations towards focusing on people becoming more Christlike in their life. One denomination changed their vision so it reads "To Make Christlike disciples in the nations". They focus heavily on compassionate Care ministries on the local church level, and have a presence in 252 countries around the world.

I'd be interested in the motivation of Explorers as well. For some it is a response to big ego pastors. For some it is a reaction to authority in general, and not wanting to "fit" in to someone else's way of doing things.

Are these categories just for those who associate/ed with the church?

The issue with just focusing on those who associate with the church is that most of them a fairly happy with the modern expression of church...that is why they go. It is those who are not going (the remaining 85% of the population) that are needing a different expression.

If we take into account those who never bought into the church or have given up on the church (not even looking for an alternative)...those who have always been OK with Jesus just not the church (my dad for example)...that "Exiters/Never Entered" category would be massive!! Perhaps if category four created another type of place, these would consider returning. But for now, they have NO desire to darken the doors of any church.

Then I would add rejected clergy (the too radicals) to the mix—perhaps they fit into a "Thrown-Outers" category. 2-5%

Just my two cents...

I think I most closely fit the explorer definition, although for the past two years I have found a home at Cedar Ridge (Brian McLaren's church). That being said my wife and I will at times attend different services at various faith traditions in our community, not seeking so much as experiencing and enjoying worship within a variety of different expressions.

I think that Steve has touched upon something that has definitely guided me on my spiritual journey - I am disinclined to accept the teachings of the church solely on the basis of any assumed authority. In fact, I feel that to do this is detrimental to an honest and vital relationship with God. Not that traditional doctrine or dogmas are false but that to dogmatically pronounce certain ideas as truth tends to devolve into a legalistic theology.

The teaching examples that Jesus gave allowed his listeners to work out their understanding for themselves. They were not spoon fed from the pulpit what they must believe if they wanted to be counted among the 'saved'. Instead they were challenged to act upon their conclusions, if they wanted to count themselves as disciples of Christ. I think the current 'traditional' paradigm of the last 150 years or so makes this difficult for many people.

Jonathan,

Your categories seem good to me - whatever you decide to call them. However, I would caution that people are not easily categorized. So, don't try to make them hard and fast categories. In fact, I would suggest that some people may find themselves in several categories depending upon what aspect of ecclesiology you are talking about. For instance, they may be in one category when it comes to a "worship service", another category when it comes to sacraments, and still a third category when it comes to church leaders. I'll continue to think about these categories, and may have more to add later.

-Alan

I would most definitely say that I fit into the "Restlessers who are trying to be agents of change within the traditional church." (thanks Steve)

I would also be brave enough to say that my close friends are all in this group (side note: none of us go to the same church). I couldn't guess at a percentage but it feels awfully low a lot of the time.

And I think that the 'traditionals' category could be split quite a few times. The degrees at which the group participates tends to further separate/unify them from/with the body. There are people that just show up (sitters?) and there are people who appear to do all and give all (insiders?) within that particular body. Then there are those who don't do much within the church but do a ton outside of the church - turning the Sunday morning thing into more of a classroom (outsiders?).

And I would have a 'tweener' group filled with people who are on the brink. Right there on the fence of letting themselves go. They know they ought to fully trust God but they simply don't (for whatever millions of reasons). I think that's around 99.9% right there ;)

And the church shoppers... I think that they truly are shopping for what will meet their needs rather than the needs of God's body. I'm not sure that I would put them in the "tweener group." Probably just a shopper group. I did that for a bit and it sucks.

And I'm curious why you named the non-church-goers 'exciters.' That doesn't sound exciting, it sounds isolated.

Hasn't Alan Jamieson a similiar list in his book 'A Churchless Faith' ?

I struggled with 'exiters' and almost read it as exciters.

I'm in a trad church but have never really fit in. There is an expectancy in most churches that you will one day agree with everything they teach.

I'm going to resign my membership shortly and attend less frequently, I'm also going to dip in and out of other forms of Church.

I felt like leaving this morning during the sermon, because of the criticism of Steve Chalke in the sermon. I'm more in agreement with Chalke's kind of belief than my current church's evangelicalism. It's a good job people don't know what I believe, otherwise they might show me out before I choose to leave.

Only God can know the motive of ones heart so as much as you try you will not rightly discern others motives. Explorers or Forerunners have always been labled rebellious in the trad. Church. I stopped "trying" to be Christlike a long time ago and trust Jesus to live His life through me. What freedom. I don't judge my brothers and sisters anymore, if they are where they sense they belong whether it be in or out of the T. C.. If everyone would stop trying to fit others in places they really don't belong maybe we could be the Body of Christ. May Jesus be Head of His Church and may we follow Him wherever He may lead us.

Jonathan,
Like others have said, I think there is a lot of crossover among the categories which makes it difficult to categorize or subcategorize. Dan Kimball's post, a href="http://www.dankimball.com/vintage_faith/2005/08/reality_church.html">Reality Church, attempted to describe various levels of church involvement.

Basically you have attenders and non-attenders. Within those 2 groups, there are probably at least a half-dozen categories of people's feelings and experience of church.

The attenders group could be further subdivided according to what type of church they attend, frequency of attendance, and degree of involvement.

Where am I on this journey?

My body attends, my heart has exited, my mind is exploring.


The non-attenders group could also probably be subdivided according to relationship with the Lord, whether they gather with other believers, and how they participate in ministry or service outside of church programs.

All, thanks for your initial responses. It really helps me and other think through some of these initial questions.

I realize there is a tremendous amount of cross over in categorizations. I find myself in the second and fourth categories. I'm participating in a traditional church model but actively exploring new models with Thrive. But I would classify myself in the fourth because my dominant or primary response is in the fourth category.

I still think we can create categories because we have primary and secondary activities and feelings. The traditional church is for most, but not all, going to a building on Sunday and all that entails. It can be Anglican, Catholic, Protestant, etc.

I like Response as opposed to Feelings because it associates activities to the feeling. I also like Restless as a category title for Tweeners. I also know there are a thousand different reasons people leave but what I'm looking for is that they have left...or not.

I also realize there should can could be an other category but for the conversation it become insignificant to what I am trying to accomplish. The vast majority I believe is found in the first two categories regardless of age, experience, etc.

I didn't include "those who have not yet explored" because this could in essence be just about everybody else. The purpose was for those already in the church in some respect.

Jonathan

As others have stated, categorizing can be difficult or "un-natural" but at the same time I do think discovering where different people are can also be helpful. Language like this can help some self identify with tensions and struggles that are going on within.

I too agree with a more descriptive term for "tweeners." Maybe “unsettled” or “strugglers” or as someone else suggested "the restless." I hear a "godly" unrest in the lives of more and more people daily.

I think the first group is a bit lower than 70% and the other three are all a bit more than the suggested 20%, 5% and 5% respectively.

I am definitely in the "explorers" group.

I think that you could add another group. Maybe call them "reformers" or maybe even "prophets" People who are attending a traditional church and have become disillusioned with it, who see that something is very wrong in the land of Christendom, but instead of leaving, or trying to start something completely new, they try to work within the traditional church to promote positive change. My wife and I have thought hard about leaving our church, but God keeps saying "Stay".

I had a quick conversation with a friend the other day, and she said something that really made me think...

"You know, Aaron, If you leave God will just call you back. The church will soon be the biggest mission field of all, If we leave what will happen to them?"

I think this group is the hardest to be in. You know they did to all the Old Testament prophets.

I'm not sure about the percentages but isn't there another category of folks? I perceive there are some that see issues in organized traditional church but stay. They think that the issues are not greater than the issues they would encounter elsewhere and/or they think they can make positive change at least in their own community.

Was that group in your thinking and you decided it wasn't significant in number or ?

Jeromy - we follow Doug Pagitt's example and call them "the resigned". hehe...my hubby and I have been "resigned" to "be resigned" ;)

I really have nothing helpful to add, but thanks for the brain fodder.

@ Rick - I would put them in the frustrated category.

Mak—"the resigned"...sigh, I too have resigned myself to be resigned. I've tried, now I am just waiting and listening for Him to lead. I have no desire to become a clergy-slave-to-the-system again. What happened for you to be resigned to being resigned?

I was thinking "disenfranchised", but "restless" rolls off the tongue easier. :) Also, the former would also probably include 'exiters'.

I'm not even sure what church is! I know God but that is all. I sometimes wonder if we make to much of church and it just adds confusion to what God is trying to say to us individually!

Jeromy - I told my story recently on my blog - basically we were just "too much" for the system we were a part of. TOO loving, TOO involved in the margins and the fringes, TOO open and flexible and far too vocal about all of it hehe... but if you're interested you can read the whole thing here

http://www.swingingfromthevine.com/2008/01/10/2...

and originally the play by play here
http://www.swingingfromthevine.com/2007/09/27/s...

I'd love to hear more of your story :)

Mak the Resigned (sounds like a cool Knights Templar name),

I posted this on your site as well:

Hearing you recall your story makes me cringe. It is one of those things that people who have been in official-church-ministry (whatever that is) just nod and say, "Say no more...I understand." I have posted some of my story here: http://mendingshift.wordpress.com/about/my-stor...

We were laid-off by a church (I have my suspicions that there was more too it than just money...hehe [as you say]). In addition to that, let's just say that during this season of "transition" and discovery, we have been rejected by more than our share of churches, a few of whom we had gotten down to the final interview before they discovered our "dirty-little-secret" as emerging sympathizers. But, as the dust settles, and we embrace who God is making us into (and calling us to be), we see God at work creating something new and Re-Formed. That said, it is still hard to be pissed on as a "heretic". But, whateva...

Blessings....
~Jeromy~

ROFLOL Mak the Resigned - I like it

i always quite like:

droners - workin for the hive

moaners - its too hot, too cold etc

loners - i don't need church to follow God. Me and Jesus is jus fine

roamers - we will find the perfect church

homers - there's a church that you can feel in home somewhere - so no right church doh!

hi jonathan. hey, i just posted a honkin' big response on the very intriguing Thriven conversation. this seems to be an important issue, as there have been at least four or five other similar blogs in the past year on systems people have used for attempting to categorize the elusive movements within "emerging." thanks for your contribution to the dialogue - sparking insightful comments and category terms ... anyway, here's my initial post:

http://futuristguy.wordpress.com/2008/01/29/tax...

Jonathan,

Lots of good comments here....

As I said on Brad's riff thread, I also don't fit in any one (or two) box. And I do sense that there is another category that others have hinted at. Perhaps it is something like "Itinerant APESTs" (at times apostolic or prophetic or evangelistic or shepherds or teachers) who:
--go wherever God sends them
--do whatever God asks them to do
--stay as long as God keeps them there
--see/embrace a vision for what God might be doing next
--leave when God sends them off somewhere else
--love and honor the Body of Christ wherever encountered

Anywhere, this describes my current situation.

As I was making notes for a future post, I remembered Max DePree's term "roving leaders" from his book "Leadership is an Art" and I really resonate with that in connection with the Itinerant APESTs category ... hmmm ... I'll be processing this more, I can see already. ;^)

peggy - yeah, David and I pretty much say that when people ask - RIGHT NOW we're --- ask us again tomorrow, it'll probably change. lol

Mak...hehehe...right up there with "Lord willing, we will be...."

sorry for the late response. not sure how these fit in, but here are a few random thoughts:

Church Before God. I've come across some people who seem to put the "rules of their church" ahead of anything of what God and Jesus talk about.

Love God, Hate the Church. Longing for a relationship with God, but don't feel an organized church experience helps. Like your "Exiters" but I don't think they are really looking.

7-Day Church. People who feel that church is more than an hour on Sunday.

Clock-Punch Church. I was one of these for a long time. Came in. Punched my time card. Went home.

Lost Sheep. The ones who aren't even looking, haven't experienced God's love in their heart.