Comments on: The Liminal Problem http://jonathanbrink.com/2008/01/20/the-liminal-problem/ Exploring God's Mission of Restoration and Reconciliation Sun, 27 Jul 2008 02:55:31 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=MU By: Jonathan Brink http://jonathanbrink.com/2008/01/20/the-liminal-problem/#comment-2947 Jonathan Brink Mon, 02 Jun 2008 21:48:02 +0000 http://jonathanbrink.com/2008/01/20/the-liminal-problem/#comment-2947 Pops, what God is doing will have some structure to it. Jesus created a pretty clear discipleship process in what it means to follow. What we get lost in is the stuff that comes out of that followership. We want to control it. But the process (model) is fairly clear. 12 people engaging His mission of restoration. I think the insecurity is the tension that is part of faith. But we run from it as much as we can. We want security. Pops, what God is doing will have some structure to it. Jesus created a pretty clear discipleship process in what it means to follow. What we get lost in is the stuff that comes out of that followership. We want to control it. But the process (model) is fairly clear. 12 people engaging His mission of restoration.

I think the insecurity is the tension that is part of faith. But we run from it as much as we can. We want security.

]]> By: Pops http://jonathanbrink.com/2008/01/20/the-liminal-problem/#comment-2946 Pops Mon, 02 Jun 2008 20:23:33 +0000 http://jonathanbrink.com/2008/01/20/the-liminal-problem/#comment-2946 I don't get it. We are dissatisfied with what was but we feel we have to replace it with another model? I got the impression that the emerging church was going on with what God is doing and slotting into that? If that is so then there is absolutely no model to be built! God can utilise us in a different way every moment of every day and surely we are to be prepared for that? It is not as if we are in a corporation filling a certain role that requires certain functions to be performed, but we are called into the will of God and God is active and dynamic and pushing to achieve His plans and purposes in the world. So, this life of faith and trust can be very unsettling but very fulfilling at the same time, if you can take the 'insecurity' that comes with it. I think we need to bear in mind that what we see as 'life' is not really life. Real life is what we particiapte in from the minute we are saved and that real life is in Jesus. Reality starts from the minute we are saved and we are seated with Christ in heavenly places - there is our reality, not here. To try and build processes or 'structures' here whilst we are actually in heavenly places is going to be an impossibility that will tire us out and bring dissillusionment. Lots of love! I don’t get it.

We are dissatisfied with what was but we feel we have to replace it with another model?

I got the impression that the emerging church was going on with what God is doing and slotting into that?

If that is so then there is absolutely no model to be built!

God can utilise us in a different way every moment of every day and surely we are to be prepared for that? It is not as if we are in a corporation filling a certain role that requires certain functions to be performed, but we are called into the will of God and God is active and dynamic and pushing to achieve His plans and purposes in the world.

So, this life of faith and trust can be very unsettling but very fulfilling at the same time, if you can take the ‘insecurity’ that comes with it.

I think we need to bear in mind that what we see as ‘life’ is not really life. Real life is what we particiapte in from the minute we are saved and that real life is in Jesus.

Reality starts from the minute we are saved and we are seated with Christ in heavenly places - there is our reality, not here.

To try and build processes or ’structures’ here whilst we are actually in heavenly places is going to be an impossibility that will tire us out and bring dissillusionment.

Lots of love!

]]> By: Joe Miller http://jonathanbrink.com/2008/01/20/the-liminal-problem/#comment-1915 Joe Miller Sun, 17 Feb 2008 07:50:07 +0000 http://jonathanbrink.com/2008/01/20/the-liminal-problem/#comment-1915 I agree with many your idea that it does no good to break things down unless you see a solution. An excellent alternative to Viola's book is "<a href="http://www.morethancake.org/2008/02/when-church-was-family.html" rel="nofollow">The Ancient Church As Family</a>" by Dr. Joe Hellerman. His work is well researched and addresses many of the "pagan" influences on our faith. Dr. Hellerman's contribution is a blend of good history AND respectful discourse. I agree with many your idea that it does no good to break things down unless you see a solution.

An excellent alternative to Viola’s book is “The Ancient Church As Family” by Dr. Joe Hellerman. His work is well researched and addresses many of the “pagan” influences on our faith. Dr. Hellerman’s contribution is a blend of good history AND respectful discourse.

]]> By: Peggy http://jonathanbrink.com/2008/01/20/the-liminal-problem/#comment-1805 Peggy Tue, 29 Jan 2008 21:21:20 +0000 http://jonathanbrink.com/2008/01/20/the-liminal-problem/#comment-1805 This really brings into focus the already/not yet themes from Scripture and the words that help ground the vision I am processing as a kind of reconstruction. I am processing the words: Don't wait. Be patient. It is a place of faith where we follow the Spirit's leading, but we are patient with the path and the length of time it takes to get where we're going. So many good discussions, so little time! I may have to add you to my Google Reader. Be blessed. This really brings into focus the already/not yet themes from Scripture and the words that help ground the vision I am processing as a kind of reconstruction. I am processing the words: Don’t wait. Be patient. It is a place of faith where we follow the Spirit’s leading, but we are patient with the path and the length of time it takes to get where we’re going.

So many good discussions, so little time! I may have to add you to my Google Reader.

Be blessed.

]]> By: jonathanbrink http://jonathanbrink.com/2008/01/20/the-liminal-problem/#comment-1753 jonathanbrink Tue, 22 Jan 2008 17:29:55 +0000 http://jonathanbrink.com/2008/01/20/the-liminal-problem/#comment-1753 Thanks for the great verses Karl. Thanks for the great verses Karl.

]]> By: Karl Usher http://jonathanbrink.com/2008/01/20/the-liminal-problem/#comment-1752 Karl Usher Tue, 22 Jan 2008 14:54:46 +0000 http://jonathanbrink.com/2008/01/20/the-liminal-problem/#comment-1752 Jonathan, What a great discussion! The "liminal" issue is not new, in my opinion. "Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when he appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is." (1 John 3:2) The "longing" that we feel is quite normal. On this side of eternity we will only have a poor reflection of God...what he has revealed to us and also in us through the Holy Spirit. "Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known." (1 Cor 13:12) In man's quest to know God fully until we see Him we will have this tension. The question of the emerging church must be answered in the context of the absolute truth of His revelation. Orthodoxy is key since it produces orthopraxy. Making church "relevant" in today's world is fine, but not at the expense of truth. This post-modern and post-western society in which we live has redefined truth and made everything relative while producing the idea that words don't even have meaning anymore. The church must be willing to stand for truth, but in the name of tolerance and PC, we have made sacrifices to the god of this world. I heard one woman pastor in the emerging church movement publicly state that it doesn't really matter if you believe that Jesus rose from the dead physically. This is essentially Docetism, which the early church condemned as heresy in 451AD. TRUTH IS NOT RELATIVE! In Christ, Karl Usher Williston, Vermont Jonathan,

What a great discussion!

The “liminal” issue is not new, in my opinion. “Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when he appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.” (1 John 3:2)

The “longing” that we feel is quite normal. On this side of eternity we will only have a poor reflection of God…what he has revealed to us and also in us through the Holy Spirit. “Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.” (1 Cor 13:12)

In man’s quest to know God fully until we see Him we will have this tension. The question of the emerging church must be answered in the context of the absolute truth of His revelation. Orthodoxy is key since it produces orthopraxy. Making church “relevant” in today’s world is fine, but not at the expense of truth. This post-modern and post-western society in which we live has redefined truth and made everything relative while producing the idea that words don’t even have meaning anymore.

The church must be willing to stand for truth, but in the name of tolerance and PC, we have made sacrifices to the god of this world.

I heard one woman pastor in the emerging church movement publicly state that it doesn’t really matter if you believe that Jesus rose from the dead physically. This is essentially Docetism, which the early church condemned as heresy in 451AD.

TRUTH IS NOT RELATIVE!

In Christ,

Karl Usher
Williston, Vermont

]]> By: Between the Dreaming and Coming True « A Mending Shift http://jonathanbrink.com/2008/01/20/the-liminal-problem/#comment-1750 Between the Dreaming and Coming True « A Mending Shift Mon, 21 Jan 2008 19:32:53 +0000 http://jonathanbrink.com/2008/01/20/the-liminal-problem/#comment-1750 [...] asked a question in his post, The Liminal Problem.  He says, “I’ve highlighted many of my concerns about the traditional models of church [...] [...] asked a question in his post, The Liminal Problem.  He says, “I’ve highlighted many of my concerns about the traditional models of church [...]

]]> By: Jeromy http://jonathanbrink.com/2008/01/20/the-liminal-problem/#comment-1748 Jeromy Mon, 21 Jan 2008 18:36:19 +0000 http://jonathanbrink.com/2008/01/20/the-liminal-problem/#comment-1748 Grace - I like how you put it as simply steps in the journey. So true. I figure we can only dream so much in the mind and classroom. Eventually we need to bring our God-dreams into the lab and the field. As we do, our dreams will alter, change, and evolve, hopefully giving birth to life-giving dreams that live, move and breathe. Grace - I like how you put it as simply steps in the journey. So true. I figure we can only dream so much in the mind and classroom. Eventually we need to bring our God-dreams into the lab and the field. As we do, our dreams will alter, change, and evolve, hopefully giving birth to life-giving dreams that live, move and breathe.

]]> By: Jeromy http://jonathanbrink.com/2008/01/20/the-liminal-problem/#comment-1747 Jeromy Mon, 21 Jan 2008 18:28:08 +0000 http://jonathanbrink.com/2008/01/20/the-liminal-problem/#comment-1747 Give me a jingle and let's dream. Unfortunately, that title is already taken, "Between the Dreaming and the Coming True" by Benson. Give me a jingle and let’s dream. Unfortunately, that title is already taken, “Between the Dreaming and the Coming True” by Benson.

]]> By: Elle http://jonathanbrink.com/2008/01/20/the-liminal-problem/#comment-1746 Elle Mon, 21 Jan 2008 17:44:53 +0000 http://jonathanbrink.com/2008/01/20/the-liminal-problem/#comment-1746 Jonathan, I could not agree more with this statement of yours: "Normally I think the “and” takes a generation at least and maybe more. But our generation and those behind us have been born and bred on change as a constant. I am now beginning to believe that our reconstruction into the next will come much sooner than we think." I really do believe we're entering a "compression" of time where things will be happening much faster than we could have imagined. We can only hope! Elle Jonathan,

I could not agree more with this statement of yours:

“Normally I think the “and” takes a generation at least and maybe more. But our generation and those behind us have been born and bred on change as a constant. I am now beginning to believe that our reconstruction into the next will come much sooner than we think.”

I really do believe we’re entering a “compression” of time where things will be happening much faster than we could have imagined. We can only hope!

Elle

]]> By: grace http://jonathanbrink.com/2008/01/20/the-liminal-problem/#comment-1745 grace Mon, 21 Jan 2008 17:28:29 +0000 http://jonathanbrink.com/2008/01/20/the-liminal-problem/#comment-1745 I appreciate Jeromy's words about dream-experimenting. That is the kind of flexibility I was trying to explain, to be willing to step out into our dreams, not considering adaptation and changes along the way to be failure, but simply steps in the journey. I appreciate Jeromy’s words about dream-experimenting. That is the kind of flexibility I was trying to explain, to be willing to step out into our dreams, not considering adaptation and changes along the way to be failure, but simply steps in the journey.

]]> By: jonathanbrink http://jonathanbrink.com/2008/01/20/the-liminal-problem/#comment-1744 jonathanbrink Mon, 21 Jan 2008 17:06:21 +0000 http://jonathanbrink.com/2008/01/20/the-liminal-problem/#comment-1744 Elle, I appreciate your enthusiasm. It is refreshing. Normally I think the "and" takes a generation at least and maybe more. But our generation and those behind us have been born and bred on change as a constant. I am now beginning to believe that our reconstruction into the next will come much sooner than we think. My only concern is that we don't miss it when it comes. Elle, I appreciate your enthusiasm. It is refreshing.

Normally I think the “and” takes a generation at least and maybe more. But our generation and those behind us have been born and bred on change as a constant. I am now beginning to believe that our reconstruction into the next will come much sooner than we think.

My only concern is that we don’t miss it when it comes.

]]> By: jonathanbrink http://jonathanbrink.com/2008/01/20/the-liminal-problem/#comment-1743 jonathanbrink Mon, 21 Jan 2008 17:03:48 +0000 http://jonathanbrink.com/2008/01/20/the-liminal-problem/#comment-1743 Jeromy, I think the and is a good place if we allow it. It's a place of trust. That's why I'm just enjoying it and considering it much like summer vacation. I love the title of your yet to be written book. Your a documenter of the journey. ;-). We need to still sit down and dream. Jeromy, I think the and is a good place if we allow it. It’s a place of trust. That’s why I’m just enjoying it and considering it much like summer vacation.

I love the title of your yet to be written book. Your a documenter of the journey. ;-).

We need to still sit down and dream.

]]> By: Elle http://jonathanbrink.com/2008/01/20/the-liminal-problem/#comment-1742 Elle Mon, 21 Jan 2008 11:16:42 +0000 http://jonathanbrink.com/2008/01/20/the-liminal-problem/#comment-1742 Jonathan, You sure strike a chord deep within me on this one! I sometimes think we need to live in the land of liminality for a long time in order to truly separate us from the "old" ways of not only doing things, but even the way we tend to automatically think and view things. It's been over a decade since I've been here in Liminal Land. In looking back, I can see it took all this time to get me to the place where I can truly begin to receive, I mean truly receive, from above. My hands were either clutching the old (even while claiming to reject it!) OR they were grasping toward the "dream of what could be." Either way, not good! It's only been this last year that I'm coming to see that I need to be able to truly receive from above before anything else can truly happen that might express the Kingdom of God. This liminal time can be wondrous...our many wounds can be healed, our cold love can be heated up, our many "visions" can be stricken down, and our silly notions can finally fly out the window! So I sit, longing and yearning, for more of the "real," and watching my Father slowly start to build trust in me that He is able, and He is going to fulfill all his purposes, and He's delighted I want to come along for the ride and share in it! I'm like a 2-year-old child, but it's a good place to be! From someone that used to "be in the ministry" and could really "make it happen (gag!)," there's no better place to be. So, fellow liminal-ers, let's enjoy the time in this strange land. Let's embrace it! Let's receive healing for our wounds! Let's watch our grasp on the past and our vision for the future fly away! Maybe it's only then that we can watch HIM build HIS KINGDOM! And lucky us will be invited to join Him in His work! Elle Jonathan,
You sure strike a chord deep within me on this one! I sometimes think we need to live in the land of liminality for a long time in order to truly separate us from the “old” ways of not only doing things, but even the way we tend to automatically think and view things. It’s been over a decade since I’ve been here in Liminal Land. In looking back, I can see it took all this time to get me to the place where I can truly begin to receive, I mean truly receive, from above. My hands were either clutching the old (even while claiming to reject it!) OR they were grasping toward the “dream of what could be.” Either way, not good!

It’s only been this last year that I’m coming to see that I need to be able to truly receive from above before anything else can truly happen that might express the Kingdom of God. This liminal time can be wondrous…our many wounds can be healed, our cold love can be heated up, our many “visions” can be stricken down, and our silly notions can finally fly out the window!

So I sit, longing and yearning, for more of the “real,” and watching my Father slowly start to build trust in me that He is able, and He is going to fulfill all his purposes, and He’s delighted I want to come along for the ride and share in it! I’m like a 2-year-old child, but it’s a good place to be! From someone that used to “be in the ministry” and could really “make it happen (gag!),” there’s no better place to be.

So, fellow liminal-ers, let’s enjoy the time in this strange land. Let’s embrace it! Let’s receive healing for our wounds! Let’s watch our grasp on the past and our vision for the future fly away! Maybe it’s only then that we can watch HIM build HIS KINGDOM! And lucky us will be invited to join Him in His work!

Elle

]]> By: Jeromy http://jonathanbrink.com/2008/01/20/the-liminal-problem/#comment-1741 Jeromy Mon, 21 Jan 2008 05:55:00 +0000 http://jonathanbrink.com/2008/01/20/the-liminal-problem/#comment-1741 Between the Dreaming and Coming True. We are in the "and". Between the Dreaming and Coming True. We are in the “and”.

]]> By: Jeromy http://jonathanbrink.com/2008/01/20/the-liminal-problem/#comment-1740 Jeromy Mon, 21 Jan 2008 05:53:30 +0000 http://jonathanbrink.com/2008/01/20/the-liminal-problem/#comment-1740 Your question has shadowed me all day. The phrase that has been echoing in my mind has been this book title, "Between the Dreaming and Coming True". That is where I feel I am and we are. Almost like a trapeze artist letting go of one bar but not quite grasping the other. Ron Lagerstrom, my spiritual director, says to enjoy this space, this time; too not rush it but view it as a gift. It is in this space of air that the magic appears. It is in the flying––between the bars––that the dance of grace begins. But I for one, sense the need to begin dream-experimenting. Where the dreaming walks with the coming true and the coming true glides with the dreaming. That as we experiment with the dream, a place where people help each other "put into practice" right thinking about following Jesus (thanks Aaron) comes true. And ultimately, when it comes down to it, we HAVE to follow the dream that Jesus, our Lord, has placed in the core of our hearts. To do otherwise, would be the sin. And as you said, Jonathan, "This lack of an answer allows many to simply dismiss the conversation. And they can if they want to. They don’t have to go down this road." They need to follow their dream, and us, ours. May it come true......here as it is in heaven. Your question has shadowed me all day. The phrase that has been echoing in my mind has been this book title, “Between the Dreaming and Coming True”. That is where I feel I am and we are. Almost like a trapeze artist letting go of one bar but not quite grasping the other. Ron Lagerstrom, my spiritual director, says to enjoy this space, this time; too not rush it but view it as a gift. It is in this space of air that the magic appears. It is in the flying––between the bars––that the dance of grace begins. But I for one, sense the need to begin dream-experimenting. Where the dreaming walks with the coming true and the coming true glides with the dreaming. That as we experiment with the dream, a place where people help each other “put into practice” right thinking about following Jesus (thanks Aaron) comes true. And ultimately, when it comes down to it, we HAVE to follow the dream that Jesus, our Lord, has placed in the core of our hearts. To do otherwise, would be the sin.

And as you said, Jonathan, “This lack of an answer allows many to simply dismiss the conversation. And they can if they want to. They don’t have to go down this road.” They need to follow their dream, and us, ours. May it come true……here as it is in heaven.

]]> By: jonathanbrink http://jonathanbrink.com/2008/01/20/the-liminal-problem/#comment-1739 jonathanbrink Mon, 21 Jan 2008 05:03:20 +0000 http://jonathanbrink.com/2008/01/20/the-liminal-problem/#comment-1739 Aaron, you said, "Its great that I am starting to think right about how to follow Christ, but that does me no good unless I can find people who can help me put it into practice." That is a brilliant observation. Aaron, you said, “Its great that I am starting to think right about how to follow Christ, but that does me no good unless I can find people who can help me put it into practice.”

That is a brilliant observation.

]]> By: jonathanbrink http://jonathanbrink.com/2008/01/20/the-liminal-problem/#comment-1738 jonathanbrink Mon, 21 Jan 2008 05:02:37 +0000 http://jonathanbrink.com/2008/01/20/the-liminal-problem/#comment-1738 Grace, I have a gut feeling we are on the cusp of moving past deconstruction and into what that next thing is. Grace, I have a gut feeling we are on the cusp of moving past deconstruction and into what that next thing is.

]]> By: Aaron G http://jonathanbrink.com/2008/01/20/the-liminal-problem/#comment-1737 Aaron G Mon, 21 Jan 2008 04:53:24 +0000 http://jonathanbrink.com/2008/01/20/the-liminal-problem/#comment-1737 For me it can be a bit disconcerting. my wife and I were talking the other day and all I could really say is that I feld "un-anchored" and I have only been in the process rethinking what it means to "be a Christian" for about six months now. I've recently started that God would put other people in my life who are asking the same questions I am, who will help me"put some shoes" on everything. It goes back to your post about orthodoxy awhile back. Its great that I am starting to think right about how to follow Christ, but that does me no good unless I can find people who can help me put it into practice. For me it can be a bit disconcerting. my wife and I were talking the other day and all I could really say is that I feld “un-anchored” and I have only been in the process rethinking what it means to “be a Christian” for about six months now.
I’ve recently started that God would put other people in my life who are asking the same questions I am, who will help me”put some shoes” on everything. It goes back to your post about orthodoxy awhile back. Its great that I am starting to think right about how to follow Christ, but that does me no good unless I can find people who can help me put it into practice.

]]> By: grace http://jonathanbrink.com/2008/01/20/the-liminal-problem/#comment-1736 grace Mon, 21 Jan 2008 03:17:07 +0000 http://jonathanbrink.com/2008/01/20/the-liminal-problem/#comment-1736 Jonathan, By the time I finished the book, I was somewhat weary of deconstruction. While I believe it is a necessary process, that isn't really where my heart is now. I am glad that the book stuck mostly to deconstruction. I am concerned about those who presume to have reconstruction all figured out and a little concerned about how prescriptive their next book might be. As we move forward, I believe we will see many more hybrid models that don't fall neatly into the categories of either institutional or house church. Right now, I think that missional orders are tapping into some of the components necessary to move forward into a greater degree of discipleship, although I can't say that I can fully understand or envision this yet. Also I believe we will have to have a degree of fluidity and adaptability in order to change structures as needed. Your last paragraph spoke what is in my heart, the need to believe that there is something more and to continue to move forward in that hope. Sometimes I wonder if it is simply idealism, but then I read something like your post that confirms what I sense, which is still beyond what I can see or understand. Jonathan,
By the time I finished the book, I was somewhat weary of deconstruction. While I believe it is a necessary process, that isn’t really where my heart is now.

I am glad that the book stuck mostly to deconstruction. I am concerned about those who presume to have reconstruction all figured out and a little concerned about how prescriptive their next book might be.

As we move forward, I believe we will see many more hybrid models that don’t fall neatly into the categories of either institutional or house church. Right now, I think that missional orders are tapping into some of the components necessary to move forward into a greater degree of discipleship, although I can’t say that I can fully understand or envision this yet. Also I believe we will have to have a degree of fluidity and adaptability in order to change structures as needed.

Your last paragraph spoke what is in my heart, the need to believe that there is something more and to continue to move forward in that hope. Sometimes I wonder if it is simply idealism, but then I read something like your post that confirms what I sense, which is still beyond what I can see or understand.

]]>