UnChristian in 2:41

I have SO many thoughts on this one that I had to set it down and come back again...

Mainly, though, what I've been pondering as of late (and this video seems to correlate) is where do we end and the Holy Spirit begins? Not to encourage apathy AT ALL, but sometimes it feels like we as a church are assuming that we're why the world is turning it's back on God. I mean, even if we were the perfect church (ie Acts church), people STILL wouldn't beleive.

So my question then is, is that line of thinking taking the responsibility and the power away from God the Almighty? The thought is, 'If we just do X right then they'll come." But will they? Again, not to encourage apathy because, at the same time, i beleive that we're called to offer every opportunity for everyone to hop aboard. I dunno.

I'm wrestling with this - and obviously don't have any answers. Thoughts?

Raquel,

In Missio Dei, God is always coming down to humanity first. But the mission is an interactive process with us. I've been studying the church for a long time and we are part of the problem. We are the hands and feet of Jesus. But we can be pretty stupid sometimes in the process. Will the Holy Spirit do His work? Absolutely.

I think this is a great example of why I am missional. I am looking for something a LOT more wholistic than what we currently have.

Two examples about structure are important: One, the first century church grew rapidly under the leadership of the Holy Spirit working in humanity. Two, the Chinese church under mao zedong grew to 100 million under oppression and no central church.

These are two really, really, really great examples of what happens when we returns to simple structures that are NOT controlled by us. The Holy Spirit flourishes.

In line with the the comments above, I immediately think of the words of Jesus in John 6:44. "No one can come to Me unless the Father who has sent Me draw him..."

So, what I try to focus on is how I can cooperate with my Father, in order to draw lost humanity to Jesus, and there are lots of things I/we can do.

As I watched the people on the video, I could see how so many of them so wanted Jesus...

These two examples are also of the Church thriving under severe oppression, and the structure of the Church is forced to be based on fluidity and the ability to adjust. A healthy dose of persecution and oppression seems to work miracles in the release of the Gospel. Most of us want a more authentic and wholistic experience, but I dare say that it is not commonplace outside of the forces of oppression and persecution. I'm trying to think of examples throughout Church history, but I'm coming up empty. Got any examples?

Jon, you can look at it that way. But you can also see the two examples as what happens when we get centrality out of the way and allow people to be led by the Holy Spirit. In persecution circumstances, the bandwagon guys don't latch on because there are circumstances for power. And in this, the Holy Spirit can flow.

Valid, very valid. Do you have any examples that have played out without oppression & persecution? If it has happened without these forces, it didn't get much coverage in Church history. Could be if the emergent thing continues, it may be the first expression minus oppression and persecution. Thoughts???

Emerging church?!? You read my mind exactly.

Jon, as far as examples, I'm hoping we we will have documentation in the next 20 years.

I LOVE how when Satan tries to stamp out Christianity ( by using communism, etc.), he actually spreads the fire. But in both of those cases, still false teachers popped up and led people astray - not all were/are genuine believers.

And I dunno about a smaller structure = depth and growth in Christ... It sounds nice but is there an equation for a guaranteed growing relationship with God?

Maybe the picture that I'm trying to paint is better suited in an analogy. When my husband is doing dishes, without fail he will get 5 offers for help. But one of the kids might need the individual time more than the others. Or one of the kids is too splashy and thus is better suited for a different "helper" job around the house. Others say that they want to help and then get distracted halfway through the job - or just quit all together when a game of blind tag opens up. We have a kid who is a crazy perfectionist and so time goes by but she just keeps washing the same cup - getting nothing else done. But whether or not my husband receives "help" from any of the kids, He's perfectly able to (and will) get the dishes done with or without them.

Do you see what I mean? My kids can, and should, try and rally up some neighbor kids to come and help with the dishes and some will want to come, some won't. Regardless of how inviting or demanding that the invitation was, either they will or won't. If we get a cozier chair to stand on (to reach the sink) or if we use e-vite instead of trying to scare people into helping, does it make a difference? Obviously we are called to "help," but because we are so limited, is the point to do a good job doing the dishes (which we will hopefully get better at with practice) or hanging out with God? Or somewhere in the middle?

The church is where people plug into the body of Christ, not just where the programs are. It is through individuals that evangelism and the proclamation of the Gospel is done. Churches that are full of people who don't take their faith with them wherever they go (ie, missional) and however they live, are not fulfilling the command of Jesus in Matthew 18:19. This is the kind of church that the emergent generation reacts against. I have been in many churches, though, that are filled with missional people. They don't come to church as their sole experience of spirituality. It is a place of learning and equipping and ministry but it is a part of a broader experience of that individual's spiritual experience.
Nobody mentioned Jesus but it could be because they were never presented with the claims of Jesus. There are many churches that play down the theology of Jesus (ie, His deity, His sinlessness, the redemptive nature of His death, the virgin birth) because they feel these either would be a barrier to "sharing the Gospel" or because it is offensive to them to begin with. They ask people take accept a generic "love" rather than the Son of God who sits at the right hand of the Everlasting Creator of the ends of the earth. What separates many of these comments from excuses like, "I'm too busy in life, it's not important to me right now"? These are people making and who have made a choice. I also can not go around trying to correct every "bad" believer's (Hypocrite) reputation he/she has passed on, and it isn't my responsibility. My job is to be all I can be in Christ, to surrender my will to His as I walk in step with the Spirit.
I like how you talk about being on your own journey, for that is what it is. For some people that translates into a very loose connection to a local body of believers, and for others there is a much greater need for that. The tighter the connection the easier it is to stay within an evangelical (not the political term) framework of faith. For those who come to Christ in their 20's or 30's, there is a definite need for good discipleship models and organized systems of thoughts. It is pretty easy for guys like Jim Jones to take a form of Christianity but use it as a power trip or the like. Ever read the "Book of Miracles"? It uses all the "Christian language" but gives a totally different meaning to the terms.
As for the church growing outside of persecution, it has happenned in many instances and places. Most of these are termed as "revivals" (of which there were 7 "great ones" if my memory of church history serves me correctly), and most were connected to works of compassionate ministries (helping people in their physical needs). They started with people praying - praying for God to do something, for the church was looking pretty shabby. A lot of the preachers went out to the people as well, rathe than them just bringing people into the church buildings. Also, look at the work God did through Billy Graham; and the stats on the Jesus Film are nothing short of miraculous!
The mission takes many forms, for we are all unique. There is also the fact that God tends to use the foolish things of the world for His purposes, not just to confound the wise, but so people know it is Him doing it, and not just human strength and talent.