The God’s Aren’t Angry Review
November 13, 2007 by Jonathan Brink
Last night I had the pleasure of seeing Rob Bell’s “The Gods Aren’t Angry” tour. The presentation was different from Everything Is Spiritual, but it was important.
When we arrived at the The Grand Ballroom, I had to laugh. Rob was being picketed by a group of guys like he was a some porn show or something. They were friendly but they had big signs reminding people of their condemnation. Oh well.
The Grand is an intimate college type venue off of Van Ness in San Francisco, which was perfect. Any larger and it would have taken away from the presentation. Rob felt accessible here. The crowd inside was electric.
The presentation began with a story about the nature of relating to forces that we assume affect our lives. In 4,000 BC the forces that moved around humanity were assumed to have a very real affect on the lives of people. Over time, humanity began to erect names for these forces, or gods. The nature of these gods created a paradox. If our lives depended on the gods for rain, etc, then we had better appease them. Rituals were created by people who had supposedly figured out how to appease the gods. The common method was an offering of some sort. Some gods could be appeased by a grain offering. Others needed blood. Other’s needed important male body parts (I’m not kidding). Molech needed children. The problem became that humanity could never really figure out how to appease the gods and ended up giving more and more and more.
It was then that Rob began to explain the nature of Abraham and Isaac. He brought up a really good point about why it appears Abraham is just willing to do so. The reality was that Abraham lived in this god culture where sacrifice was expected. I was considered normal during that day. His point was that God was showing Abraham he didn’t want his son as a sacrifice and offered a ram instead. God’s invitation was to Abraham was relate in a real way. This was unheard of in his day.
Rob then began discussing the nature of the sacrificial system as a ritual to appease the conscience of man. He talked about the many verses where God doesn’t need our sacrifice. So what was the sacrifice then about. It was about appeasing our own conscience. The ritual was a reminder of our own forgiveness and putting away the shame. Unfortunately the Sadducee’s had created an industry out of the ritual and were distorting its purpose. The offering of Jesus was then a way to reform the old way and do away with sacrifice. Rob talked a lot about how much of our life is still about appeasing the gods. He talked about the nature of Christ’s death was to do away with God’s anger. The early church kept rituals as a way of reminding themselves of what Jesus did on the cross. They kept one great offering though. That was to “do good.”
The last part was about how we make this last offering. Rob offered story after story about how we transform the world around us through love. It felt very much like an ending to a Nooma video with the music accompanying his message. His last words I believe were, “May you remember that God is love.”
I walked away with a very real impression that if you still were into religion, this was going to mess with your head. I found it to be a very liberating reminder not to get sucked back into trying to please God and embrace that He already loves me.
You can catch a snipper of Rob from the tour here. Rob starts about 1:27.
[...] Aug 8th, 2007 by jonathanbrink Update: You can find my review here. [...]
Do you think he was saying that Jesus’ work on the cross, or reconciliation, or peace, was applied across-the-board to all of humanity (reconciling all things) regardless of anything we do or believe? That our response to this once-and-for-all act of God is celebration and a life of love through the peace and love Jesus gave? That humanities guilt is gone…we have peace with God?
I’ll say it a different way. The work of the cross applied to all of humanity and creation. From God’s perspective there is no separation. I believe that is what he was saying.
And then, after the work of the cross was applied, is it up to us to accept it’s redemption, therefor being able to live in the fullness of it all? Or does humanity receive it regardless - whether they accept it or not?
Yes. There are always at least two parties to reconciliation. When God forgave us we could accept or reject it. But our response does not define His.
So the question then becomes if there is nothing separating God from humanity or His creation, how much does His Spirit affect the world. Does he touch the life of a Muslim, or Indian, or atheist? I absolutely believe He does. That is His nature, to love.
cool topic!
Can He touch the life of a Muslim, Indian, or athiest? Absolutely! The Great Commission calls us to go out into the world and make disciples of ALL nations! Have you read the book, Light Force by Brother Andrew? It’s an autobiographical account of what’s going on in the middle east - where Jesus is at work within the Jewish world and the Muslim world. It gave me such hope! After their conversion to Christ, people from within the two groups are reconciling and finding common ground in their belief in Him. It’s such a wonderful testimony to see just how great that our God is… just how deep and how wide that His love can go into our darkest places (racism that reaches back through a bazillion generations) and heal them!
Like in Hebrews 4:12, God penetrates with power into the depth of our spirits and invites us to join Him in cleaning out the gunk that we shove WAY deep down (between the marrow and the joints as it were). How cool is that?!?
Yea, people are always free to reject God regardless of his forgiveness of them. The beauty is when people realize that God is not mad at them, that they do not have to appease or please him…they have peace.
Jonathan, well said: “our response does not define His.” We like to think it does.
Raquel, thanks for sharing that story and book. Yes, very cool and encouraging.
Question: Is there a chance for repentance and reception of God’s grace & forgiveness after death? Or does our physical death have the final say and power?
I know most people reading this aren’t gonna get my comment, but “It took us a long time to see that we were saying the same thing all along.”
Jeromy,
I don’t think so…. (by the way, do you have these questions stored up or do you stumble upon them during your day?). I think that the opportunity is given now, here on earth. The blood serves as grace to cover our sins, but if we don’t accept the blood than nothing gets covered. It is my understanding that upon our death here, we will receive judgment - not opportunity for another shot.
I like what Moses/God said when the covenant was made with those dang Israelites after their 40 yr trip. He says (vs 19) THIS DAY choose life. Essentially, now are never guys… you pick. Blessings or curses.
Deut 30:11-14
Now what I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach. It is not up in heaven, so that you have to ask, “Who will ascend into heaven to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?” Nor is it beyond the sea, so that you have to ask, “Who will cross the sea to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?” No, the word is very near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart so you may obey it.
(one two skip a few)
Deut 30:19-20
This day I call heaven and earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live and that you may love the LORD your God, listen to his voice, and hold fast to him. For the LORD is your life, and he will give you many years in the land he swore to give to your fathers, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
What’s your opinion on the subject? Jonathan?
I don’t know the answer to that one. This is the paradox for me. If the sacrifice was for all creation and satisfied his anger, then how could it not apply. Why is our response necessary to what God always said he would fulfill in the end. When I forgive someone, their response or lack of response doesn’t change my response. It feels like man wanting to insert himself in the process again. “God I know you forgave me but I’m going to hold the trump card on this one. I’m not going to accept it, which invalidates what you did.” It doesn’t make sense to me.
I don’t think God would be angry, maybe disappointed. But then again I’m not God. I can only image the conversation I would have with my son who would choose not to accept my forgiveness.
I think your “If” is a biggy Jonathan. Can you show me in Scripture where Christ’s blood is for all of creation, and that God’s anger is now satisfied because of it?
I think even of the rest of the passage following John 3:16 - “Whoever believes in Him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.” v18 and onto v36 “Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, BUT THE WRATH OF GOD REMAINS ON HIM.”
Romans 2:5 “But because of your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God’s righteous judgment will be revealed.”
I think to view God’s wrath as mitigated is to neglect the absolute abhorrence of sin. We would deserve hell for one moment of delighting in something other than God who is supremely worthy of all glory and honor and wisdom and power. We are missing the awesomeness of God. And, what I think we are falsely assuming is that those in hell somehow stop sinning… do you think that they will not be angry with the God who damned them? Eternal separation from Him is part of eternal damnation….
I am curious too, as per comment 8 - why is it so important to you that we are all saying the same thing? You’ve mentioned that a couple of times now…
I think it comes down to this. Belief. If you don’t believe then the atonement is not in working in you. Look at the fruit, slashed wrists, alcoholism, abuse, on and on and on. like I posted earlier. I have been a Christian for 32 years but something was blocking my true understanding of the completeness of Christ’s work. I don’t have to live like I have for decades because I now, in my heart believe. Now does God’s work permeate the world regardless of people accepting him? I think so. I am an aquatic biologist by trade. If a community chooses to stop polluting a stream then the stream’s health benefits all of those down stream regardless of what the others down there practice or not. Whether someone believes Christ is God, died, rose again, and through his blood all is made new does not make it not true or not.
It is true and impacts the world regardless of someone accepting him or not. For that individual though the implications have eternal impact.
Nicole,
Romans 3:2324 - for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.
Romans 5:18 - Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men.
Mark 16:15 - He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation.
Hebrews 9:26 - Then Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But now he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself.
John 3:17 - For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.
Is it possible that God is not angry, but it man simply refuses to accept that forgiveness? Does man’s response determine God’s response? Is it possible that man simply refuses to let go of God’s wrath in that passage? Notice how he says, “the wrath of God remains.” Those who refuse grace simply hold onto judgment. It doesn’t say God is angry.
I’ll say it another way. A man kills another man’s wife. The killer goes to trial. All evidence convicts him. But at the trial the defendant tells the judge that he will serve the killer’s sentence. The killer walks free but continues to judge himself for what he did. Does the sentence not hold true? The answer is both. He is a free man yet he refuses to accept it. His life is defined by it. So when he dies, does the wrath remain? Yes, because he never let it go. But has the judgment been removed, yes.
Through all of our conversation, I realize that you may still be thinking I’m saying everyone has a free pass to heaven regardless. The fact is no, I’m not saying that. I’m saying I don’t think God is mad at his creation anymore. But when all is said and done, we will judge ourselves more harshly that he ever would. We refuse his grace for a myriad of reasons. And that is the problem, not that God is still mad at us.
We hold this view of God that He is mad and that only when we accept His grace will he stop being mad at him. I just don’t buy that viewpoint. I don’t see God’s response as conditional. If I accept His forgiveness, when did He forgive me? 2,000 years ago.
Wow - that’s a lot to digest…. : )
I don’t have answers to some of it…. Feel a little stumped with the Romans 5 bit - and while I know the typical answer I would give, it feels somewhat insufficient.
I see a context with most of the passages you gave - the framework for salvation is believers - ie. Romans 3:22 “the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ FOR ALL WHO BELIEVE.” and then in verse 25 “a propitiation by His blood, to be received by faith”.
And Mark 16:15 is directly followed by “Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.”
“We hold this view of God that He is mad and that only when we accept His grace will he stop being mad at him. I just don’t buy that viewpoint. I don’t see God’s response as conditional.” Why not? We were children of wrath. (Eph. 2:3) Enemies of God (Rom. 5:10) Dead in our trespasses and sins. (Eph. 2:1)
“If I accept His forgiveness, when did He forgive me? 2,000 years ago.” I think earlier than that: “even as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us for adoption through Jesus Christ…..” Ephesians 1:4,5
I think an incredibly tough passage to slug through is Romans 9… ie. v22,23 “What if God, desiring to show His wrath and to make known His power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of His glory for vessels ofmercy, which He has prepared beforehand for glory….”
I don’t know what else to say - I appreciate your clarification regarding who/how many you understand are saved… I still disagree on a fundamental level - regarding God’s wrath…. There is definately some ways where all of creation benefits from God’s mercy. The fact that we live, and move, and have delights, and family and pleasures - are all evidence that He does show mercy to His entire creation. For we all deserve Hell, and He does not give that to us so soon as He might….
“We would deserve hell for one moment of delighting in something other than God who is supremely worthy of all glory and honor and wisdom and power. We are missing the awesomeness of God”…
Is God’s awesomeness, glory, wisdom, power, honor only expressed (or in the least, expressed best) through his wrath, anger, and judgement?
The only verse I can find that directly discusses “one death then judgment” is Hebrews 9:27 - “Just as people are destined to die once, and after that face judgement,” At first blush, perhaps it is saying what it seems to be saying, but when viewed in context, there is more to it. It is surrounded by the Blood of Christ and His sacrifice, once and for all…(http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews%209-10;&version=31
Is there a “judgement” that can lead to repentance?
Are God’s hands died by our death? “Sorry, I’d love to extend grace, but you died.” Would not death then still have a “sting”? In other words, are we saying that our death has more power than God and his ability to extend grace?
Can’t we still deny him even to his face, thus being self-damned?
Will not knee bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is Lord? Our very criteria for salvation by faith?
I don’t know the answers to these questions. And yep, Raquel, I have a bunch of these stored up inside of me. I am rejoicing that I can ask them. That I can really dig into God; his Word; his character; his heart and just try to listen. I am jazzed to allow his word and Spirit to speak to me, to really listen to what it is saying. I bring my own crap and human understanding to the table, but I still try to listen.
IF the answer to some of these questions is YES, then I am more in awe and love with God than ever. Then it really wouldn’t be about us at all!! It would be all about him and his decision to extend peace. It would all be through Jesus, just in such a BIGGER way than we could have ever imagined! That even after death, he loves his creation enough to forgive (or let them know in personal, face-to-face way that they have already been forgiven). That, yes, we could still deny and hate him, even after death, but after fully knowing him and his grace, who would choose to? Some perhaps.
What would then be the value of living for him prior to death? I ask that too. Personally, I love living for him and would not have it any other way. I love being used by him as people discover his greatness and choose him now! What joy it is to love and be loved!! What a privilege it is to be a part of his Kingdom now, and in the ages to come!! Maybe the weeping and gnashing of teeth is out of their remorse for not seeing, or even rejecting, Jesus while they lived on earth…
But again, God is just now bringing these questions to the surface. Which is why I need your voice and community so we can learn and grow together.
Ladies,
At the beginning of this I said, “I don’t know.” I still hold that. I’m not the judge and I’m just living out my grace and exploring the nature of forgiveness and judgment.
But, the more I get to know God, the more I recognize that it is His nature to love. As I read the story I see a God actively bent towards restoration but wrestling with a broken people. The historical church has always painted a wrathful God and that is not what drew me to the Father. It was always grace. I see God dying to redeem His creation. For every wrath comment is an equal comment of love. And yet why are we so quick to move to the wrath side.
Maybe it is my desire to find the love side and explore that.
Jonathan,
Just recently, God bonked me on the head about where I had gone disastrously wrong concerning my opinion of the “OT God”. Now, stay with me here because I’m still just allowing formation of this new idea in my head. I ‘knew’ that bit about God is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow. HOWEVER I thought that God, by sending His Son, learned a bit about how tough it is down here, being human and all (I admit that I’m embarrassed to be sharing this) and seeing life through our eyes made Him more merciful. As if He didn’t already know how we felt… right? The God who knows everything didn’t know how tough it is to be born sinful and to fail minute to minute amidst trying to do the right thing? I now see that this makes zero sense whatsoever, but I held it strong and I’m still trying to let that presumption go.
And then, like I said, I got bonked on the head and started diving into the OT a little more (I am totally NT biased). Through that I can see a teensy bit more about God and how He really was the same God from the OT. Man! He gave those ridiculous Isrealites so many freakin’ chances, so many new covenants, so many chances for them to seek Him. I would’ve given up LONG before He did. I suppose that this is why no one gives me infinite power.
The God that I saw as 100% wrath-y, mad God was giving them ample opportunity to seek Him. Like 6000 yrs or so.
But I also see Him eventually turning His eyes. They fell away from Him time and time again; but through that I, a norweigan-gentile, am able to receive that same opportunity. Like when Paul references Isaiah 6:9-10 before saying, “Therefore I want you to know that God’s salvation has been sent to the Gentiles, and they will listen!”
There is a perfect balance… of love and wrath… and, as scary as it is, we will all get one or the other when we receive judgment. Both are Biblical. Both are God. I believe that it is our honor to represent both appropriately, as God is within us.
Was that long wided or what? Dude. I need to blog on my own blog.
Nicole,
Below is a list of verses the point to the nature of what God is doing. His desire is the restoration for all His creation. The point is not universalism but that for all the verses of wrath there are also verses pointing to his mercy. The point is that its not black and white the way we often think it is.
Luke 3:5-6 - 5Every valley shall be filled in,
every mountain and hill made low.
The crooked roads shall become straight,
the rough ways smooth.
6And all mankind will see God’s salvation.’
Psalm 22:27-31
27 All the ends of the earth
will remember and turn to the LORD,
and all the families of the nations
will bow down before him,
28 for dominion belongs to the LORD
and he rules over the nations.
29 All the rich of the earth will feast and worship;
all who go down to the dust will kneel before him—
those who cannot keep themselves alive.
30 Posterity will serve him;
future generations will be told about the Lord.
31 They will proclaim his righteousness
to a people yet unborn—
for he has done it.
Psalm 33:14
from his dwelling place he watches all who live on earth-
Psalm 65:1-3
1 Praise awaits you, O God, in Zion;
to you our vows will be fulfilled.
2 O you who hear prayer,
to you all men will come.
3 When we were overwhelmed by sins,
you forgave our transgressions.
Psalm 66:4
All the earth bows down to you; they sing praise to you, they sing praise to your name.”
Psalm 67:1-5
1 May God be gracious to us and bless us
and make his face shine upon us,
Selah
2 that your ways may be known on earth,
your salvation among all nations.
3 May the peoples praise you, O God;
may all the peoples praise you.
4 May the nations be glad and sing for joy,
for you rule the peoples justly
and guide the nations of the earth.
Selah
5 May the peoples praise you, O God;
may all the peoples praise you.
Psalm 72:10-12
10 The kings of Tarshish and of distant shores
will bring tribute to him;
the kings of Sheba and Seba
will present him gifts.
11 All kings will bow down to him
and all nations will serve him.
12 For he will deliver the needy who cry out,
the afflicted who have no one to help.
Psalm 72:17
May his name endure forever; may it continue as long as the sun. All nations will be blessed through him, and they will call him blessed.
Psalm 82
A psalm of Asaph.
1 God presides in the great assembly;
he gives judgment among the “gods”:
2 “How long will you defend the unjust
and show partiality to the wicked?
Selah
3 Defend the cause of the weak and fatherless;
maintain the rights of the poor and oppressed.
4 Rescue the weak and needy;
deliver them from the hand of the wicked.
5 “They know nothing, they understand nothing.
They walk about in darkness;
all the foundations of the earth are shaken.
6 “I said, ‘You are “gods”;
you are all sons of the Most High.’
7 But you will die like mere men;
you will fall like every other ruler.”
8 Rise up, O God, judge the earth,
for all the nations are your inheritance.
Psalm 86:8-10
8 Among the gods there is none like you, O Lord;
no deeds can compare with yours.
9 All the nations you have made
will come and worship before you, O Lord;
they will bring glory to your name.
10 For you are great and do marvelous deeds;
you alone are God.
Psalm 89:11
The heavens are yours, and yours also the earth; you founded the world and all that is in it.
Psalm 97:6
The heavens proclaim his righteousness, and all the peoples see his glory.
Psalm 98:3
He has remembered his love and his faithfulness to the house of Israel; all the ends of the earth have seen the salvation of our God.
Psalm 102:15
The nations will fear the name of the LORD, all the kings of the earth will revere your glory.
Psalm 103:19
The LORD has established his throne in heaven, and his kingdom rules over all.
Psalm 145:9
The LORD is good to all; he has compassion on all he has made.
Psalm 145:10
All you have made will praise you, O LORD; your saints will extol you.
Psalm 145:11-13
11 They will tell of the glory of your kingdom
and speak of your might,
12 so that all men may know of your mighty acts
and the glorious splendor of your kingdom.
13 Your kingdom is an everlasting kingdom,
and your dominion endures through all generations.
The LORD is faithful to all his promises
and loving toward all he has made.
I really, really appreciate you taking time to put this together Jonathan!
I had a great talk about this with my Mom yesterday… And maybe I still don’t understand the point you are making? It is not universalism, we clarified that… so what is it? I guess I don’t understand “restoration of all creation”…
Man, I hate doing this, so tell me when to shut up : ) Not sure how much of a dialogue you are looking for….
I was thinking even about the verse in Mark - the great commission - where Christ tells His disciples that they are to go out and preach to all creation. Clearly, there is a context. The obviously did not start trying to witness to rocks and leaves…. And in general, I understand the context of “all men” to mean all sorts of men, or all types of men - as even in Acts we see the Isrealites chasing Paul out a city at the thought of sharing the Gospel with the Gentiles. (Acts 13:26&f.) It was not until Jesus left the earth that the Word was shared amonst non-Jews….
Rev.5:9 is also a great passage on this: “Worthy are you to take the scroll and to open its seals, for you were slain, and by your blood you ransomed people for God from every tribe adn language and people and nation….” Christ’s blood ransomed all peoples - that is, people from every people group.
God certainly exercises compassion on all He has made - again, the fact that we enjoy as much as we do is testimony to His mercy. The scary flipside of that, of course, is evidenced in Romans…
Rom 2:4,5 “Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, tolerance and patience, not realizing that God’s kindness leads you toward repentance? But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God’s wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed.” When we neglect to return to Him the praise and honor due Him for His glorious riches, we add to our iniquity.
Does your understanding of restoring all creation include those in hell? Satan? Demons? I just think that, when we look at verses on restoring all things, we must do so in the light of the rest of Scripture - and I think there is most definately a context for “all creation”… does that make any sense at all?
Nicole,
The mission of God is to restore all creation. In Genesis, all creation is His artwork. Not just humanity. But humanity is what He primarily focuses on. And in Jesus we see the perfect reflection of the Father.
So if Jesus is the perfect reflection of the Father, why does He spend most of His time seeking mercy, restoration of people’s dignity and reconciliation. He doesn’t run after them and tell them, “My Father is going to get you.” Instead He brings compassion and mercy. He understand that this is the nature of His Father. It is because this is what makes the universe work. Who is He harsh to? To follow him is not just about getting the facts right as the Pharisees did. It’s not about defining creeds and dotting the I’s and crossing the t’s. That’s about control, which is the domain of the enemy. God’s Kingdom is about love and grace and mercy. But He will not force ANYONE into relationship.
He’s already forgiven because of what happened on the cross. But you nor I or the neighbor next door have to accept that grace. And so we remain under judgment because WE DON’T LET GO. And this is the paradox for me. I don’t really have the answer because there is evidence on both sides.
But the historical church wants us to think it’s black and white. It is my opinion that we hold onto judgment because it’s an easy motivator. We assume it does the work for us by scaring people into heaven. Jesus drew people in with love.
Jeromy and I had a good discussion about this and who knows what God means when he says all creation or things like all men. But I am not called to be the judge but to bring mercy. I would rather err on the side of mercy and let God do the judging.
Let me ask you this. What does the church lose if God has already forgiven mankind? Isn’t it still Good News? Isn’t it actually better news? Man is still separated from relationship with God. And wouldn’t our work still be to spread that Good News because were not bringing judgment but grace?
Any thoughts.
Lots of thoughts…. (thanks for asking : )
I think we lose God’s glory and sovereignty.
The word sin occurs in the NIV almost as many times as the word love (475 and 551 respectively) - and yet I am not hearing what we are being saved from…..
I say we lose a sense of God’s sovereignty, because when we agree that the whole world is already reconciled, and man just has to accept it, we are putting the final act of reconciliation into the hands of men. I just do not see that in the Bible - chosen in Him before the foundation of the world, love Him because He first loved us, predestined to adoption….
And why was He harsh to the pharisees, if they were already reconciled too? Why did the disciples shake the dust off their feet in some towns? Why were they told that they ought not to cast pearls before swine? Why speak in parables - to blind eyes and harden hearts? How is that loving? Or reconciling?
God’s grace is best understood, when we best understand our own sin, and absolute need of a Savior. God is most glorified in me, when I can point to Him and say “He is my only hope in this world, wretched, wicked as my heart is!” That is why Paul asks if we should sin that grace may abound. Because grace is more evident when we see what it saves us from.
Man needs salvation. Man needs the blood of Christ (for without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin)
I am not called to judge either. Some of my best friends are not saved, and I certainly do not talk to them as I share with you - I understand their need for love as well as their need for a Savior. I understand that only God can convict - and that often when we try to play the part of the Holy Spirit the walls go up…
And I think it is about some dotted I’s and crossed T’s…. John 14 is a great marriage of what we are both saying (if that makes sense : ) “If you love Me, you will obey Me” The cost of discipleship is great, the road is tough, and there is more to obedience than just love….
What does “already forgiven” mean? If God’s wrath is satisfied, why do men still go to hell? If Christ’s blood has covered all creation, why does God still hold anyone responsible for their sin?
We do not bring judgement. Only God does. But man needs to know that judgement is coming - “But I will warn you whom to fear: fear Him who, after He has killed, has authority to cast into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear Him!” Luke 12:5
Nicole,
Let’s just agree to disagree. I’m not here to convince you and if what you are doing works for you, then great.
late to the discussion but I read through it all.
Jonathan, if it works for me to be angry and unrepentant towards God during my life on earth and Rob Bell is right (I’m already forgiven by God but just haven’t yet accepted it and let go of my sin and shame) then I can die and see that my Father’s rules for living didn’t really have to be followed at all and I’ll be just fine.
However, if the early church fathers, the great theologians like Augustine, St. Thomas Aquinas, Reformers life Luther, Calvin and Malancthon and Preacher / Theologians like Charles Hadden Spurgeon and Jonathan Edwards are right … then I do need to be worried about appeasing God’s anger and wrath at my rebellion toward Him and failure to submit to His perfect and protective law.
(Google and read Edward’s ‘Sinner’s in the Hands of an Angry God’. It’s older language but gives a great understanding of what Edward’s calls the indescribable majesty of Him whom we have offended by our sin.)
I’m hesitant to go against two thousand years of orthodox understanding the wrath of a Holy God directed toward the unrepentant sin of a depraved humanity just because I live in a postmodern world that has given us ‘emerging theology’.
I don’t know where Rob Bell, Brian Mclaren, and Doug Paggit’s Emerging Theology will take the church but if it takes us into a ‘whatever works for you is ok for you’ mentality irrelevant to what truth and orthodox Biblical exegesis seems to plainly state then I won’t go along for the ride.
I think Rob is an outstanding Bible teacher and I listened to him for years. It’s just that I get weary of hearing how we’ve misunderstood the plain meaning of the texts for so long but he studied it and is ready to tell us what it really means. I have more faith in God, orthodox theology and the plain meaning of Biblical texts than that. Otherwise, unless we’ve read what the ‘rabbi’s’ all said, we can’t really understand it for ourselves.
I don’t agree with Bell’s take on God’s anger being already appeased without my submission to Christ and repentance of heart before Him as a prerequisite. I find Verity’s theology, use of scripture and tone of discussion very helpful to this dialogue. She posted many of the verses I would have referenced in Ephesians 2 and Romans and they really speak for themselves quite clearly in context. Thank you for the forum and I hope that we’ll all pour more fervently into the scriptures as a result.
Thanks for your additional thoughts Heath.
While I agree that there is something called Orthodoxy and we’re desperately trying to get at it, I don’t share your opinion that we’ve gotten it all right.
Much love.
I really appreciate everyone’s imput, I’ve read over most of whats being said and some really good points are being made. There’s a quote from pastor Matt Chandler from the Village Chuch that I think really paints a good picture of the topics being discussed. He states, “The cross is a picture of the rage of God against sin, and his indescribable mercy towards sinners.”
So you look at many writings from the 1800’s and you see believers who were just gung-ho the anger of God and no love of God. Even today I people holding signs of some pretty harsh, hateful verses taken out of their full context. Nowadays, the more popular view is definitely the belief that God is love and is never angry. I believe the quote from Chandler pretty accurately describes the truth and puts the pendulum right in the middle.
You lean too far one way, and you start to think God hates us all. You lean too far the other way and you start to think sin is no big deal, no need for a broken and contrite heart, and no awe for the holiness and greatness of our creator. The truth is, he came to make purifications for thee great plague of mankind, this is the good news!!
I think a balanced view of our brokeness and God’s holiness is a place we need to be. To stay low before him, Not, how great am I, but how great is he! In light of all my failures, how amazing is Christ that he loves me right now! Not just me when I don’t struggle, but me right now! I’ve heard it said that most people hate grace, because to accept grace is to acknowledge you have a need, and to acknowledge you have a need is to humble yourself before God. All over the scriptures you see how God honors the humble, but opposes the proud. God looks for not worthy people, but broken children.
He’s the only hope our world has, and “how shall we escape if we ignore such a great salvation?” (Hebrews 2:3) This invitation goes out to all men everywhere, an offering of undeserved grace to everyone. For those who believe, Colossians 3 says that, “for you have died, and your life is hidden with christ in God.” That is amazing! This offer is to all, but is definitely not a cry of univerrsalism. The said truth is that many people will die and go to hell seperated from their creator, which doesn’t negate the great love he has for them, but anyone who is not covered in the blood of Christ on that final day will be judged accordingly.
For it is by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is NOT of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not by works so that no one can boast. The gospel is not a plea of how we did it right, but how Christ has made a way for his grace to be lavished upon all who will believe. I think this blocks out any room for pride in our hearts whatsoever. We haven’t done a thing, don’t walk with a limp, it’s all Christ, Jesus paid it all!!
You guys are awesome, keep pressing in to Christ, he’s all we got!
-davie
wow Davie - so well said!
Davie, thank you for your thoughtful post.
We all agree that our sin is despicable and that we deserve nothing from God.
We also agree that Jesus’ death on the cross, through his blood, made the way possible for peace and a relationship with God.
I think where the differences lie is just how far reaching his death was, the degree to which “salvation” is about him and not about us, and whether any action on our part (works, belief, etc…
triggers the application of God’s forgiveness through Jesus or if it applies regardless of anything we do.
Some sense that Jesus’ blood and forgiveness has NOTHING to do with us and EVERYTHING to do with him. That when we do believe we are forgiven, we are saved from our life of guilt, dread, and fear and freed to fully walk in our previously-declared but just-now-realized state of forgiveness.
In a sense, that his work and declaration of forgiveness is MUCH more powerful than we could ever think or imagine.
[...] then there’s this one: He talked about the nature of Christ’s death was to do away with God’s anger. The early church [...]
Hey Jonathan,
Just wanted to say thanks for the summary and review. I linked your review because I thought you did a fabulous job.
And great follow up conversation as well.
Peace,
Josh
God is love. Sometimes love gets angry - if it doesn’t then it doesn’t really care about others who harm themselves and wrong others.
Rob Bell’s point is (or at least ought to be) that in salvation, as in everything else, God is taking the initiative - we don’t appease an angry God by offering Him something, as if we had anything that wasn’t already a gift from Him. He appeases His own righteous wrath by offering His Son for us.
That doesn’t mean He doesn’t have anything but happy thoughts toward sinners. Jesus’ blood doesn’t effectively take away God’s wrath from sinners carte blanche - it opens a new and living way - an opportunity that can be entered. As has been said, you need to trust Jesus to be grafted into his election.
God is actually quite angry. But that’s not the dominant descriptor of God - God is love.
If you can comprehend Rwanda, Dharfur, and the daily child abuse, murder, rape, etc. of our planet and NOT be angry - you aren’t ethically superior; you’re evil.
Tim,
Thanks for adding to the conversation. I think you’ve captured brilliantly what Rob is after. God hates that his creation is destroying itself. It’s counter to what he desires for us and created us for. But His anger is at the sin, not the sinner. He wants to restore the sinner and always makes the first move towards restoration.
This is a reallllly longggg thread… hah! My 2 cents is this. Sin came into the world because of choice. Adam and Eve made that choice - it was in the nature of God to grant us free will. Do we hold it as a trump card? i don’t think the perspective is right, but do we have a choice to refuse it? Yes. We choose to sin - we make a choice about redemption. As to what happens to those who do refuse? I leave that to God’s grace. Did God forgive you 2000 years ago? Yes and no - Christ’s finished work on the cross applied to all creation - it was that grace at the cross that reckoned Abraham’s willingness to sacrifice Isaac as righteousness. It was the heart bent on faith on God. Remember though, that God is beyond time and we can’t put Him in a box that contains us. When you die, do you wait in paradise (or wherever) until time ends, or do you go to that place at that moment (almost as if as soon as you get there you come back in the Revelation event).
salvation is described in places as a gift. I have a gift for you. It iis wrapped, has your name on it, and I know you’ll like it. Do you have it? I am even holding out to you… but until you reach out and accept it, you don’t have it. If that is what you call a work. then so be it; but that is the only work you or I ever have to do in relation to salvation - and it is the result of a choice. And speaking of sanctification, if we come to Christ in faith and not of works, maybe there is an element that holiness denominations can add to this discussion!
[...] My review here. [...]
[...] version of the Jewish God. His rant is remarkably similar to Rob Bell’s discussion on “The God’s Aren’t Angry” tour. Humanity constantly is creating a human version of God, casting our own image on [...]