Thanks for adding to the conversation. I think you’ve captured brilliantly what Rob is after. God hates that his creation is destroying itself. It’s counter to what he desires for us and created us for. But His anger is at the sin, not the sinner. He wants to restore the sinner and always makes the first move towards restoration.

Rob Bell’s point is (or at least ought to be) that in salvation, as in everything else, God is taking the initiative - we don’t appease an angry God by offering Him something, as if we had anything that wasn’t already a gift from Him. He appeases His own righteous wrath by offering His Son for us.

That doesn’t mean He doesn’t have anything but happy thoughts toward sinners. Jesus’ blood doesn’t effectively take away God’s wrath from sinners carte blanche - it opens a new and living way - an opportunity that can be entered. As has been said, you need to trust Jesus to be grafted into his election.

God is actually quite angry. But that’s not the dominant descriptor of God - God is love.

If you can comprehend Rwanda, Dharfur, and the daily child abuse, murder, rape, etc. of our planet and NOT be angry - you aren’t ethically superior; you’re evil.

Just wanted to say thanks for the summary and review. I linked your review because I thought you did a fabulous job.

And great follow up conversation as well.

Peace,

Josh

We all agree that our sin is despicable and that we deserve nothing from God.

We also agree that Jesus’ death on the cross, through his blood, made the way possible for peace and a relationship with God.

I think where the differences lie is just how far reaching his death was, the degree to which “salvation” is about him and not about us, and whether any action on our part (works, belief, etc… triggers the application of God’s forgiveness through Jesus or if it applies regardless of anything we do.

Some sense that Jesus’ blood and forgiveness has NOTHING to do with us and EVERYTHING to do with him. That when we do believe we are forgiven, we are saved from our life of guilt, dread, and fear and freed to fully walk in our previously-declared but just-now-realized state of forgiveness.

In a sense, that his work and declaration of forgiveness is MUCH more powerful than we could ever think or imagine.

While I agree that there is something called Orthodoxy and we’re desperately trying to get at it, I don’t share your opinion that we’ve gotten it all right.

Much love.

Jonathan, if it works for me to be angry and unrepentant towards God during my life on earth and Rob Bell is right (I’m already forgiven by God but just haven’t yet accepted it and let go of my sin and shame) then I can die and see that my Father’s rules for living didn’t really have to be followed at all and I’ll be just fine.

However, if the early church fathers, the great theologians like Augustine, St. Thomas Aquinas, Reformers life Luther, Calvin and Malancthon and Preacher / Theologians like Charles Hadden Spurgeon and Jonathan Edwards are right … then I do need to be worried about appeasing God’s anger and wrath at my rebellion toward Him and failure to submit to His perfect and protective law.

(Google and read Edward’s ‘Sinner’s in the Hands of an Angry God’. It’s older language but gives a great understanding of what Edward’s calls the indescribable majesty of Him whom we have offended by our sin.)

I’m hesitant to go against two thousand years of orthodox understanding the wrath of a Holy God directed toward the unrepentant sin of a depraved humanity just because I live in a postmodern world that has given us ‘emerging theology’.

I don’t know where Rob Bell, Brian Mclaren, and Doug Paggit’s Emerging Theology will take the church but if it takes us into a ‘whatever works for you is ok for you’ mentality irrelevant to what truth and orthodox Biblical exegesis seems to plainly state then I won’t go along for the ride.

I think Rob is an outstanding Bible teacher and I listened to him for years. It’s just that I get weary of hearing how we’ve misunderstood the plain meaning of the texts for so long but he studied it and is ready to tell us what it really means. I have more faith in God, orthodox theology and the plain meaning of Biblical texts than that. Otherwise, unless we’ve read what the ‘rabbi’s’ all said, we can’t really understand it for ourselves.

I don’t agree with Bell’s take on God’s anger being already appeased without my submission to Christ and repentance of heart before Him as a prerequisite. I find Verity’s theology, use of scripture and tone of discussion very helpful to this dialogue. She posted many of the verses I would have referenced in Ephesians 2 and Romans and they really speak for themselves quite clearly in context. Thank you for the forum and I hope that we’ll all pour more fervently into the scriptures as a result.

Let’s just agree to disagree. I’m not here to convince you and if what you are doing works for you, then great.

I think we lose God’s glory and sovereignty.

The word sin occurs in the NIV almost as many times as the word love (475 and 551 respectively) - and yet I am not hearing what we are being saved from…..

I say we lose a sense of God’s sovereignty, because when we agree that the whole world is already reconciled, and man just has to accept it, we are putting the final act of reconciliation into the hands of men. I just do not see that in the Bible - chosen in Him before the foundation of the world, love Him because He first loved us, predestined to adoption….

And why was He harsh to the pharisees, if they were already reconciled too? Why did the disciples shake the dust off their feet in some towns? Why were they told that they ought not to cast pearls before swine? Why speak in parables - to blind eyes and harden hearts? How is that loving? Or reconciling?

God’s grace is best understood, when we best understand our own sin, and absolute need of a Savior. God is most glorified in me, when I can point to Him and say “He is my only hope in this world, wretched, wicked as my heart is!” That is why Paul asks if we should sin that grace may abound. Because grace is more evident when we see what it saves us from.

Man needs salvation. Man needs the blood of Christ (for without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin)

I am not called to judge either. Some of my best friends are not saved, and I certainly do not talk to them as I share with you - I understand their need for love as well as their need for a Savior. I understand that only God can convict - and that often when we try to play the part of the Holy Spirit the walls go up…

And I think it is about some dotted I’s and crossed T’s…. John 14 is a great marriage of what we are both saying (if that makes sense : ) “If you love Me, you will obey Me” The cost of discipleship is great, the road is tough, and there is more to obedience than just love….

What does “already forgiven” mean? If God’s wrath is satisfied, why do men still go to hell? If Christ’s blood has covered all creation, why does God still hold anyone responsible for their sin?

We do not bring judgement. Only God does. But man needs to know that judgement is coming - “But I will warn you whom to fear: fear Him who, after He has killed, has authority to cast into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear Him!” Luke 12:5

The mission of God is to restore all creation. In Genesis, all creation is His artwork. Not just humanity. But humanity is what He primarily focuses on. And in Jesus we see the perfect reflection of the Father.

So if Jesus is the perfect reflection of the Father, why does He spend most of His time seeking mercy, restoration of people’s dignity and reconciliation. He doesn’t run after them and tell them, “My Father is going to get you.” Instead He brings compassion and mercy. He understand that this is the nature of His Father. It is because this is what makes the universe work. Who is He harsh to? To follow him is not just about getting the facts right as the Pharisees did. It’s not about defining creeds and dotting the I’s and crossing the t’s. That’s about control, which is the domain of the enemy. God’s Kingdom is about love and grace and mercy. But He will not force ANYONE into relationship.

He’s already forgiven because of what happened on the cross. But you nor I or the neighbor next door have to accept that grace. And so we remain under judgment because WE DON’T LET GO. And this is the paradox for me. I don’t really have the answer because there is evidence on both sides.

But the historical church wants us to think it’s black and white. It is my opinion that we hold onto judgment because it’s an easy motivator. We assume it does the work for us by scaring people into heaven. Jesus drew people in with love.

Jeromy and I had a good discussion about this and who knows what God means when he says all creation or things like all men. But I am not called to be the judge but to bring mercy. I would rather err on the side of mercy and let God do the judging.

Let me ask you this. What does the church lose if God has already forgiven mankind? Isn’t it still Good News? Isn’t it actually better news? Man is still separated from relationship with God. And wouldn’t our work still be to spread that Good News because were not bringing judgment but grace?

Any thoughts.

I had a great talk about this with my Mom yesterday… And maybe I still don’t understand the point you are making? It is not universalism, we clarified that… so what is it? I guess I don’t understand “restoration of all creation”…

Man, I hate doing this, so tell me when to shut up : ) Not sure how much of a dialogue you are looking for….

I was thinking even about the verse in Mark - the great commission - where Christ tells His disciples that they are to go out and preach to all creation. Clearly, there is a context. The obviously did not start trying to witness to rocks and leaves…. And in general, I understand the context of “all men” to mean all sorts of men, or all types of men - as even in Acts we see the Isrealites chasing Paul out a city at the thought of sharing the Gospel with the Gentiles. (Acts 13:26&f.) It was not until Jesus left the earth that the Word was shared amonst non-Jews….

Rev.5:9 is also a great passage on this: “Worthy are you to take the scroll and to open its seals, for you were slain, and by your blood you ransomed people for God from every tribe adn language and people and nation….” Christ’s blood ransomed all peoples - that is, people from every people group.

God certainly exercises compassion on all He has made - again, the fact that we enjoy as much as we do is testimony to His mercy. The scary flipside of that, of course, is evidenced in Romans…

Rom 2:4,5 “Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, tolerance and patience, not realizing that God’s kindness leads you toward repentance? But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God’s wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed.” When we neglect to return to Him the praise and honor due Him for His glorious riches, we add to our iniquity.

Does your understanding of restoring all creation include those in hell? Satan? Demons? I just think that, when we look at verses on restoring all things, we must do so in the light of the rest of Scripture - and I think there is most definately a context for “all creation”… does that make any sense at all?

Below is a list of verses the point to the nature of what God is doing. His desire is the restoration for all His creation. The point is not universalism but that for all the verses of wrath there are also verses pointing to his mercy. The point is that its not black and white the way we often think it is.

Luke 3:5-6 - 5Every valley shall be filled in,
every mountain and hill made low.
The crooked roads shall become straight,
the rough ways smooth.
6And all mankind will see God’s salvation.’

Psalm 22:27-31
27 All the ends of the earth
will remember and turn to the LORD,
and all the families of the nations
will bow down before him,
28 for dominion belongs to the LORD
and he rules over the nations.
29 All the rich of the earth will feast and worship;
all who go down to the dust will kneel before him—
those who cannot keep themselves alive.
30 Posterity will serve him;
future generations will be told about the Lord.
31 They will proclaim his righteousness
to a people yet unborn—
for he has done it.

Psalm 33:14
from his dwelling place he watches all who live on earth-

Psalm 65:1-3
1 Praise awaits you, O God, in Zion;
to you our vows will be fulfilled.
2 O you who hear prayer,
to you all men will come.
3 When we were overwhelmed by sins,
you forgave our transgressions.

Psalm 66:4
All the earth bows down to you; they sing praise to you, they sing praise to your name.”

Psalm 67:1-5
1 May God be gracious to us and bless us
and make his face shine upon us,
Selah
2 that your ways may be known on earth,
your salvation among all nations.
3 May the peoples praise you, O God;
may all the peoples praise you.
4 May the nations be glad and sing for joy,
for you rule the peoples justly
and guide the nations of the earth.
Selah
5 May the peoples praise you, O God;
may all the peoples praise you.

Psalm 72:10-12
10 The kings of Tarshish and of distant shores
will bring tribute to him;
the kings of Sheba and Seba
will present him gifts.
11 All kings will bow down to him
and all nations will serve him.
12 For he will deliver the needy who cry out,
the afflicted who have no one to help.

Psalm 72:17
May his name endure forever; may it continue as long as the sun. All nations will be blessed through him, and they will call him blessed.

Psalm 82
A psalm of Asaph.
1 God presides in the great assembly;
he gives judgment among the “gods”:
2 “How long will you defend the unjust
and show partiality to the wicked?
Selah
3 Defend the cause of the weak and fatherless;
maintain the rights of the poor and oppressed.
4 Rescue the weak and needy;
deliver them from the hand of the wicked.
5 “They know nothing, they understand nothing.
They walk about in darkness;
all the foundations of the earth are shaken.
6 “I said, ‘You are “gods”;
you are all sons of the Most High.’
7 But you will die like mere men;
you will fall like every other ruler.”
8 Rise up, O God, judge the earth,
for all the nations are your inheritance.

Psalm 86:8-10
8 Among the gods there is none like you, O Lord;
no deeds can compare with yours.
9 All the nations you have made
will come and worship before you, O Lord;
they will bring glory to your name.
10 For you are great and do marvelous deeds;
you alone are God.

Psalm 89:11
The heavens are yours, and yours also the earth; you founded the world and all that is in it.

Psalm 97:6
The heavens proclaim his righteousness, and all the peoples see his glory.

Psalm 98:3
He has remembered his love and his faithfulness to the house of Israel; all the ends of the earth have seen the salvation of our God.

Psalm 102:15
The nations will fear the name of the LORD, all the kings of the earth will revere your glory.

Psalm 103:19
The LORD has established his throne in heaven, and his kingdom rules over all.

Psalm 145:9
The LORD is good to all; he has compassion on all he has made.

Psalm 145:10
All you have made will praise you, O LORD; your saints will extol you.

Psalm 145:11-13
11 They will tell of the glory of your kingdom
and speak of your might,
12 so that all men may know of your mighty acts
and the glorious splendor of your kingdom.
13 Your kingdom is an everlasting kingdom,
and your dominion endures through all generations.
The LORD is faithful to all his promises
and loving toward all he has made.

Just recently, God bonked me on the head about where I had gone disastrously wrong concerning my opinion of the “OT God”. Now, stay with me here because I’m still just allowing formation of this new idea in my head. I ‘knew’ that bit about God is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow. HOWEVER I thought that God, by sending His Son, learned a bit about how tough it is down here, being human and all (I admit that I’m embarrassed to be sharing this) and seeing life through our eyes made Him more merciful. As if He didn’t already know how we felt… right? The God who knows everything didn’t know how tough it is to be born sinful and to fail minute to minute amidst trying to do the right thing? I now see that this makes zero sense whatsoever, but I held it strong and I’m still trying to let that presumption go.

And then, like I said, I got bonked on the head and started diving into the OT a little more (I am totally NT biased). Through that I can see a teensy bit more about God and how He really was the same God from the OT. Man! He gave those ridiculous Isrealites so many freakin’ chances, so many new covenants, so many chances for them to seek Him. I would’ve given up LONG before He did. I suppose that this is why no one gives me infinite power.
The God that I saw as 100% wrath-y, mad God was giving them ample opportunity to seek Him. Like 6000 yrs or so.

But I also see Him eventually turning His eyes. They fell away from Him time and time again; but through that I, a norweigan-gentile, am able to receive that same opportunity. Like when Paul references Isaiah 6:9-10 before saying, “Therefore I want you to know that God’s salvation has been sent to the Gentiles, and they will listen!”

There is a perfect balance… of love and wrath… and, as scary as it is, we will all get one or the other when we receive judgment. Both are Biblical. Both are God. I believe that it is our honor to represent both appropriately, as God is within us.

Was that long wided or what? Dude. I need to blog on my own blog.

At the beginning of this I said, “I don’t know.” I still hold that. I’m not the judge and I’m just living out my grace and exploring the nature of forgiveness and judgment.

But, the more I get to know God, the more I recognize that it is His nature to love. As I read the story I see a God actively bent towards restoration but wrestling with a broken people. The historical church has always painted a wrathful God and that is not what drew me to the Father. It was always grace. I see God dying to redeem His creation. For every wrath comment is an equal comment of love. And yet why are we so quick to move to the wrath side.

Maybe it is my desire to find the love side and explore that.

Is there a “judgement” that can lead to repentance?

Are God’s hands died by our death? “Sorry, I’d love to extend grace, but you died.” Would not death then still have a “sting”? In other words, are we saying that our death has more power than God and his ability to extend grace?

Can’t we still deny him even to his face, thus being self-damned?

Will not knee bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is Lord? Our very criteria for salvation by faith?

I don’t know the answers to these questions. And yep, Raquel, I have a bunch of these stored up inside of me. I am rejoicing that I can ask them. That I can really dig into God; his Word; his character; his heart and just try to listen. I am jazzed to allow his word and Spirit to speak to me, to really listen to what it is saying. I bring my own crap and human understanding to the table, but I still try to listen.

IF the answer to some of these questions is YES, then I am more in awe and love with God than ever. Then it really wouldn’t be about us at all!! It would be all about him and his decision to extend peace. It would all be through Jesus, just in such a BIGGER way than we could have ever imagined! That even after death, he loves his creation enough to forgive (or let them know in personal, face-to-face way that they have already been forgiven). That, yes, we could still deny and hate him, even after death, but after fully knowing him and his grace, who would choose to? Some perhaps.

What would then be the value of living for him prior to death? I ask that too. Personally, I love living for him and would not have it any other way. I love being used by him as people discover his greatness and choose him now! What joy it is to love and be loved!! What a privilege it is to be a part of his Kingdom now, and in the ages to come!! Maybe the weeping and gnashing of teeth is out of their remorse for not seeing, or even rejecting, Jesus while they lived on earth…

But again, God is just now bringing these questions to the surface. Which is why I need your voice and community so we can learn and grow together.