Comments on: The Nature of Postmodern/Emerging Dialog http://jonathanbrink.com/2007/08/24/the-nature-of-postmodernemerging-dialog/ Exploring God's Mission of Restoration and Reconciliation Sun, 27 Jul 2008 02:51:11 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=MU By: Steve grove http://jonathanbrink.com/2007/08/24/the-nature-of-postmodernemerging-dialog/#comment-1771 Steve grove Sun, 27 Jan 2008 02:34:44 +0000 http://jonathanbrink.com/2007/08/24/the-nature-of-postmodernemerging-dialog/#comment-1771 Conversion - it has to do with how close people are to God. Evangelical means we believe that people need to have an encounter with Jesus. In that encounter there is a recognition that we can't do it, only Jesus can (and did). We can't do it because we have a sin problem. It is only a faith in Jesus' grace that allows that sin problem to be cleared up. That is choice, the moment of conversion. It is at that point you have assurance of salvation because the holy Spirit has been given to you as a "guarantor". The unfortunate thing we have done in church is to say that is all. Holiness churches have always understood there is more, that following Jesus is a lifelong commitment to discipleship that will change your life. Perhaps the whole responsibility is also not just on the church or its leaders. How many people come to Jesus and then don't want to be changed. How many of us as youth made a commitment that didn't affect our actions or attitudes or speech in any discernable way? The church is made up of vast amounts of these people. We used to call them carnal. Romans 7 and 8 reflects both people trying to live the Christian life in their own strength as well as those who are led by the Spirit. Maybe it is not so much church structure that needs change from time to time but a revival of the work of the Holy Spirit. That itself will change how and why we do church. Does me wanting to see someone become a Christian make me a salesman? I am called to love, for loves sake, but Jesus also commanded before He left to "make disciples". Their value as a person is not dependent on what I think of them, but of what God thinks of them (Romans 5:8). Conversion - it has to do with how close people are to God. Evangelical means we believe that people need to have an encounter with Jesus. In that encounter there is a recognition that we can’t do it, only Jesus can (and did). We can’t do it because we have a sin problem. It is only a faith in Jesus’ grace that allows that sin problem to be cleared up. That is choice, the moment of conversion. It is at that point you have assurance of salvation because the holy Spirit has been given to you as a “guarantor”.

The unfortunate thing we have done in church is to say that is all. Holiness churches have always understood there is more, that following Jesus is a lifelong commitment to discipleship that will change your life. Perhaps the whole responsibility is also not just on the church or its leaders. How many people come to Jesus and then don’t want to be changed. How many of us as youth made a commitment that didn’t affect our actions or attitudes or speech in any discernable way? The church is made up of vast amounts of these people. We used to call them carnal. Romans 7 and 8 reflects both people trying to live the Christian life in their own strength as well as those who are led by the Spirit. Maybe it is not so much church structure that needs change from time to time but a revival of the work of the Holy Spirit. That itself will change how and why we do church.

Does me wanting to see someone become a Christian make me a salesman? I am called to love, for loves sake, but Jesus also commanded before He left to “make disciples”. Their value as a person is not dependent on what I think of them, but of what God thinks of them (Romans 5:8).

]]> By: yuming http://jonathanbrink.com/2007/08/24/the-nature-of-postmodernemerging-dialog/#comment-1620 yuming Thu, 10 Jan 2008 10:02:49 +0000 http://jonathanbrink.com/2007/08/24/the-nature-of-postmodernemerging-dialog/#comment-1620 i just wanted to read your thesis so that we can make it as a basis for our assignment. . . thanks! :) i just wanted to read your thesis so that we can make it as a basis for our assignment. . . thanks! :)

]]> By: Roger Saner http://jonathanbrink.com/2007/08/24/the-nature-of-postmodernemerging-dialog/#comment-74 Roger Saner Mon, 27 Aug 2007 13:03:55 +0000 http://jonathanbrink.com/2007/08/24/the-nature-of-postmodernemerging-dialog/#comment-74 Thanks for the mention, Jonathan - glad you stopped by! And good thoughts on truth+Scripture/stories/Christendom/respect :) Grace to you on your journey. Thanks for the mention, Jonathan - glad you stopped by! And good thoughts on truth+Scripture/stories/Christendom/respect :) Grace to you on your journey.

]]> By: jonathanbrink http://jonathanbrink.com/2007/08/24/the-nature-of-postmodernemerging-dialog/#comment-66 jonathanbrink Sat, 25 Aug 2007 17:39:50 +0000 http://jonathanbrink.com/2007/08/24/the-nature-of-postmodernemerging-dialog/#comment-66 Jerry, I think this simplicity is just too complex for the church sometimes. Historic Christendom likes to make things complex for the sake of inserting ourselves into the process. Then the people have to follow the leaders rather than Jesus. Jerry,

I think this simplicity is just too complex for the church sometimes. Historic Christendom likes to make things complex for the sake of inserting ourselves into the process. Then the people have to follow the leaders rather than Jesus.

]]> By: jerry http://jonathanbrink.com/2007/08/24/the-nature-of-postmodernemerging-dialog/#comment-65 jerry Sat, 25 Aug 2007 14:15:55 +0000 http://jonathanbrink.com/2007/08/24/the-nature-of-postmodernemerging-dialog/#comment-65 Good post jonathan. I think there's another "tension" we should explore: to what extent should the "church" adapt to the dominant culture. As you know, thanks to Constantine, the church has essentially lost its culture. There are those who argue rather than adapt and "fit in", we should regain that early church culture "not of this world". Might first of all make it easier to tell who the "christians" are, eh? I recently made a reference, "where are all the christians on monday through saturday" to a former pastor. His reply hit me upside my head: "where are all the christians on sunday?!" Wasn't it Billy Graham that observed, "the number one stumbling block to christianity are christians!" Can this be true? Probably today even more than ever. We're constantly being accused of being hypocrites. Perhaps, and maybe to the point you're trying to make, we should acknowledge that charge, plead guilty and live out our faith differently. You're right, Jesus took a very simple approach to following Him. I wonder, if all we strived for in living out our faith was to "Love God" and "Love others" (neighbor, enemies, etc.), we might have a full blown revival take place! Shalom. Good post jonathan.
I think there’s another “tension” we should explore: to what extent should the “church” adapt to the dominant culture. As you know, thanks to Constantine, the church has essentially lost its culture. There are those who argue rather than adapt and “fit in”, we should regain that early church culture “not of this world”. Might first of all make it easier to tell who the “christians” are, eh? I recently made a reference, “where are all the christians on monday through saturday” to a former pastor. His reply hit me upside my head: “where are all the christians on sunday?!”

Wasn’t it Billy Graham that observed, “the number one stumbling block to christianity are christians!” Can this be true? Probably today even more than ever. We’re constantly being accused of being hypocrites. Perhaps, and maybe to the point you’re trying to make, we should acknowledge that charge, plead guilty and live out our faith differently.

You’re right, Jesus took a very simple approach to following Him. I wonder, if all we strived for in living out our faith was to “Love God” and “Love others” (neighbor, enemies, etc.), we might have a full blown revival take place!

Shalom.

]]> By: jonathanbrink http://jonathanbrink.com/2007/08/24/the-nature-of-postmodernemerging-dialog/#comment-64 jonathanbrink Sat, 25 Aug 2007 01:02:00 +0000 http://jonathanbrink.com/2007/08/24/the-nature-of-postmodernemerging-dialog/#comment-64 Lyndon, I never saw that movie but with a quote like that, I'm going to. I'm tempted to make it a quote of the day. Lyndon,

I never saw that movie but with a quote like that, I’m going to. I’m tempted to make it a quote of the day.

]]> By: jonathanbrink http://jonathanbrink.com/2007/08/24/the-nature-of-postmodernemerging-dialog/#comment-63 jonathanbrink Sat, 25 Aug 2007 01:01:25 +0000 http://jonathanbrink.com/2007/08/24/the-nature-of-postmodernemerging-dialog/#comment-63 Makeesha, I like how you've captured the tension. Our presence BUGS them. And pomos made me laugh when I said fast out loud. Makeesha,

I like how you’ve captured the tension. Our presence BUGS them. And pomos made me laugh when I said fast out loud.

]]> By: Lyndon Marcotte http://jonathanbrink.com/2007/08/24/the-nature-of-postmodernemerging-dialog/#comment-62 Lyndon Marcotte Sat, 25 Aug 2007 00:56:27 +0000 http://jonathanbrink.com/2007/08/24/the-nature-of-postmodernemerging-dialog/#comment-62 Wow. Very good post. I think you described the 'conversation' very well. A couple thoughts: "this need to convert is actually a desire to validate what we believe." That's a really good point. Refusal of the invitation is seen as a refusal of the evangelist as well. My departure from pastoral ministry was interpreted as an indictment of the church, although I said nothing to that effect, but some people were upset because my refusal to play the game said something about their sportsmanship. "Love listens." Brilliant statement. It reminded me of my post <a href="http://wordslessspoken.com/2007/08/03/a-hobbits-tale-of-the-soul/" rel="nofollow">A Hobbit's Tale of the Soul</a>. This is an excerpt: "There’s a powerful quote from the movie <i>Big Kahuna</i> with Kevin Spacey and Danny Devito that describes this well: <blockquote>'It doesn’t matter whether you’re selling Jesus or Buddha or civil rights or ‘How to Make Money in Real Estate With No Money Down.’ That doesn’t make you a human being; it makes you a marketing rep. If you want to talk to somebody honestly, as a human being, ask him about his kids. Find out what his dreams are - just to find out, for no other reason. Because as soon as you lay your hands on a conversation to steer it, it’s not a conversation anymore; it’s a pitch. And you’re not a human being; you’re a marketing rep.'</blockquote> "This realization has forever changed the way I interact with people and what I think of evangelism. I want to know people and value them for who they are and what they can teach me through their stories regardless of whether they agree with me or not." God's blessings on the journey. Wow. Very good post. I think you described the ‘conversation’ very well. A couple thoughts:

“this need to convert is actually a desire to validate what we believe.” That’s a really good point. Refusal of the invitation is seen as a refusal of the evangelist as well. My departure from pastoral ministry was interpreted as an indictment of the church, although I said nothing to that effect, but some people were upset because my refusal to play the game said something about their sportsmanship.

“Love listens.” Brilliant statement. It reminded me of my post A Hobbit’s Tale of the Soul. This is an excerpt:

“There’s a powerful quote from the movie Big Kahuna with Kevin Spacey and Danny Devito that describes this well:

‘It doesn’t matter whether you’re selling Jesus or Buddha or civil rights or ‘How to Make Money in Real Estate With No Money Down.’ That doesn’t make you a human being; it makes you a marketing rep. If you want to talk to somebody honestly, as a human being, ask him about his kids. Find out what his dreams are - just to find out, for no other reason. Because as soon as you lay your hands on a conversation to steer it, it’s not a conversation anymore; it’s a pitch. And you’re not a human being; you’re a marketing rep.’

“This realization has forever changed the way I interact with people and what I think of evangelism. I want to know people and value them for who they are and what they can teach me through their stories regardless of whether they agree with me or not.”

God’s blessings on the journey.

]]> By: Makeesha http://jonathanbrink.com/2007/08/24/the-nature-of-postmodernemerging-dialog/#comment-61 Makeesha Fri, 24 Aug 2007 19:18:21 +0000 http://jonathanbrink.com/2007/08/24/the-nature-of-postmodernemerging-dialog/#comment-61 thanks for the nod - I find good stuff because I spend an inordinate amt of time on the computer hehe... I think you provided a very good thesis on why the "modern vs. post modern" conflict exists. Pomos (wow, say that too fast and it sounds really derogatory hehe) want to dialog, to wrestle and mostly to allow themselves the freedom to listen without making immediate judgment calls and they want that same respect in turn. So most of us are ok being in community with modernists but most modernists struggle to be ok with being in community with us which in turn makes it almost impossible for us to be in community with them (that was a very awkward sentence, sorry). I know that sounds like I'm blaming modernists and I guess in a way I am - but I also believe the onus is on us (hehe...funny play with words there) to be peace makers, to communicate ourselves with clarity and to build bridges. I suck at those things to be honest. So anyway, yeah, good stuff Jonathan hehe thanks for the nod - I find good stuff because I spend an inordinate amt of time on the computer hehe…

I think you provided a very good thesis on why the “modern vs. post modern” conflict exists. Pomos (wow, say that too fast and it sounds really derogatory hehe) want to dialog, to wrestle and mostly to allow themselves the freedom to listen without making immediate judgment calls and they want that same respect in turn. So most of us are ok being in community with modernists but most modernists struggle to be ok with being in community with us which in turn makes it almost impossible for us to be in community with them (that was a very awkward sentence, sorry). I know that sounds like I’m blaming modernists and I guess in a way I am - but I also believe the onus is on us (hehe…funny play with words there) to be peace makers, to communicate ourselves with clarity and to build bridges. I suck at those things to be honest.

So anyway, yeah, good stuff Jonathan hehe

]]>